Pat Robertson

[Guest]

I too opposed Gay marriage in Oregon but in the midst of wolves we must "be wise as serpents, harmless as doves". I don't think some prominent people keep that in mind very well. Jesus must wince at what we often say.

Schoel, I recall the anguish I felt upon hearing a Palistinian Christian ask why Christians in the United States do not care about them at all. How can this be? We favor those who are in effect AntiChrists!

[Guest]

Since we are faced with a historically unique ability to help direct the policies of our country, we (Western Christians) are faced with new questions about our role in public/governmental arenas.

I don't believe we can refrain from all action on social issues that clearly contradict righteousness and justice as defined in the Bible. But many activities on these social issues can be called into question as to their effectiveness or eternal significance.

I solve this tension with the following principles:
1) We must attempt to address social injustice in whatever means that honors Christ (i.e. voting, protesting, civil disobedience, etc).
2) However, we cannot allow these other methods to gain more of our hope and support than the power of the Gospel of Jesus. This alone will affect true and lasting change and has conquered powerful secular entities such as Rome and the Communist bloc.

Was it a Godly decision for Bonhoeffer to attempt assasination of Hitler? I cannot judge his decision as I've never faced what he faced. I would respectfully defer to the conscience of an individual in Christ.

From a morally pragmatic standpoint, it would make sense.
However, Christ commanded his followers to love their enemies and there wasn't any indication of early Christians, under the persecution of horrible tyrants such as Nero and Domitian, ever considering assasination.

[Guest]

Does anyone know of organizations that help our fellow Christians in Palestine?

I'd sure like to show them that we love them in a practical way.

[Guest]

Hi Roger,

Christopher and others....I suggest you investigate the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Maybe you already have. As a minister in Nazi Germany he gave his life in an attempt to assassinate Adolph Hitler. I have no doubt that many believers enterred into the great effort to stop this satanic regime that caused the death of tens of millions. This may be an extreme point, but do we as believers just sit back and not make an active resistance to evil in this world?

You might be right, and I would agree with Schoel about leaving it to every man's conscience before God as to the extent of resistence to be applied. But I can't help think about Jesus' response to an evil injustice of His time:

Luke 13:1-4
13:1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
NKJV

There is indeed much evil, injustice, persecution, and oppression in the world, but I'm not convinced that it's the Christians' role to be the instrument of moral judgment to the world. The bible seems to indicate that that role belongs to God.

Rom 12:17-21
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
NKJV

Paul also says about authorities:

Rom 13:4-5
4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
NKJV

It seems to me that God Himself raises up governments to take care of the likes of Hitler. And historically speaking, He judges nations that do evil (after much long suffering).

I believer Homer is right. Until the heart of a people is changed (converted), it's almost pointless to treat the symptom (sinful practice).

[Guest]

schoel, here are some links for you. I took note of them from Brother Andrew's book Light Force. The man was a friend of Yasser Arafat, and shared the gospel with him.

Unhinged from dispensationalism, I have been grieved that none of my pastors and teachers ever spoke of the church in Palestine, only of the Jews who need to be there in order to be slaughtered before Jesus can set foot on the earth again. This sounds harsh, because this is the reality of what dispensationalists teach. Why they don't announce this plainly seems obvious.

One of the saddest quotes from Andrew's book (I paraphrase) is from a Palestinian who comes to the realization that myriad Christians believe he must leave his homeland before his Saviour can return.

www.pbsociety.org
www.bethlehembiblecollege.edu
www.beit-asaph.org.il
www.hope-school.8k.com
Hanna Massad and Gaza Baptist Church : contact Christian Mission to Gaza, 3433 Ellesmere Dr., corona, CA 92882
www.opendoors.org

I hope these links help.

[Guest]

I don't want to get involved with a political discussion but i feel compelled to respond. First thing is that in any Islamic country eventually virtually all other religions disappear sooner or later. Whether it's Lebanon,Syria,Egypt or Iraq or the Palistinian territory it seems inevitable. The Palistinian Christian population has'nt been anywhere near 30% for a long time and my guess is that it's below 5% and dropping. Bethelem used to be Christian and now they're all gone. Sure on Christmas the Christians come and where do they come from? Israel is where they come from because they can live there in peace. Yes Israel is mostly atheistic but now there are 100 Messianic temples and the number grows every month because there is a spiritual void. True Christians are'nt loved in Israel but they are'nt persecuted and murdered either.
And btw not all dispensationalists believe 2/3s of the jews have to die in Israel because of one verse in Zechariah that probably applied to Jerusalem 70AD.

[Guest]

Jim Rutz at worldnetdaily.com has statistics on evangelization in Muslim countries. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=48169

Perhaps we are to be skeptical, though I choose not to be. I pray (as I’m sure you do as well) that you are wrong about the inevitablity of the church dying in Islamic countries, or in any other country.

(Of course, if one is a dispensationalist, this may be bad news, because the system declares the world will get worse before the rapture, and evangelization only delays that occurrence.)

Maybe the Christian population in Palestine is what you claim. We still pray for them, and the Israeli Christians.

Point taken, concerning dispensationalists and Zechariah 13:8. Which dispensationalists don’t interpret the passage this way? John MacArthur has a variant view, at least at the time his study Bible was published. He sees the 1/3 as a spiritual remnant of Jews at Christ’s second coming.

Other than that, noted “friends of Israel” such as Chuck Missler,
Chuck Smith and Jon Courson have all gone on record as referring to Zechariah 13:8 as a massacre of the Jews. They often refer to it as a holocaust.

See: http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/258/ (footnote 21)
joncourson.com (Zech. 12-13, at min 47)
thewordfortoday.org (Zech. 13-14, at 10 min 30 sec)

David Hocking, Tim LaHaye, Thomas Ice and Ed Hindson have all expressed similar views about what they deem to be the time of Jacob’s trouble.

[Guest]

Perhaps we are to be skeptical, though I choose not to be. I pray (as I’m sure you do as well) that you are wrong about the inevitablity of the church dying in Islamic countries, or in any other country

As Jesus said "all things are possible with God" so no i don't believe it's inevitable that Islamic countries won't see the light in fact i believe some day they will.
I know a lot of high profile dispensationals believe 2/3 of the jews will die but i studied with a group that did'nt including a fellow who wrote a book on Revelation
My main point was to point out that there is a burgening Messianic jewish movement in Israel which gets no publicity but will quietly move forward and grow because it's time IMHO.

[Guest]

Does anyone know of organizations that help our fellow Christians in Palestine?

I'd sure like to show them that we love them in a practical way.

Hey brother,
Here's another wonderful organization that helps the families of Martyrs. www.persecution.com (Voice of the Martyrs)
God bless you,
Derek

[Guest]

Here is a wonderful orphanage in Ramallah http://www.hnlife.org/index.html

I have received their newsletter for a couple of years now. They do a great work for impoverished and orphaned children - all in the name of Christ.