Pat Robertson

[Guest]

Steve150:
My point in bringing up the decreasing population of Christians in the Palestinian areas is to discuss why that might be.

It looks to me that one of the biggest reasons is the blinded, unquestioning support for Israel that is espoused by the majority of western Christians. The western church has believed questionable eschatological systems that favor an atheistic state while dismissing or vilifying our fellow believers as they seek justice. IMHO, the western church needs to support justice and peace for all parties concerned, so that the Gospel can be heard throughout the land.

It is good to hear of Messianic congregations and I pray that they are a light in a dark place.

[Guest]

Amen, Schoel

[Guest]

The western church has believed questionable eschatological systems that favor an atheistic state while dismissing or vilifying our fellow believers as they seek justice[/color]

Schoel, These eschatological systems are not questionable to these churches in fact they would say ammilleniamism is questionable. They have the right to believe what they believe and that does infer a jewish Israel to which Christ will return to and that this jewish state may be to a large extent atheistic.
Have you always believed what you believe about eschatology? Have you ever changed your mind? Are you positive there is no possible way you could be mistaken?
Of course i agree with you that we should'nt neglect Palistinean Christians or any others in difficult circumstances and that's why we have terrific charities and ministries we can give to.

[Guest]

Good word there STEVE7150.

The fact that Isreal is athiestic may be exactly what is described in the word as to the condition of Isreal before the return of Christ.

Luke 18:8 "Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he really find faith on the earth?"(NKJV)

Then we read in Rev. 1:7 "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, and they also who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."

Then in Zech. 12:10-11 " Then they will look on Me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mouning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo."

The sadly mistaken dispensationalists believe that Isreal will be in unbelief right up to the return of Christ.

But then again....maybe it is the amillinialists that are the sadly mistaken.

[Guest]

Steve150:
I would not argue another Christian's duty and privilege to study the Scriptures and reach a different conclusion on a secondary issue such as eschatology.
And I must admit that I've not "landed" as it were on an eschatological standpoint. I've got years of studying yet to do. However, I honestly find futurism the least plausible from what I've studied so far, but I'm open to hearing and considering all eschatogical options.

But if historic premillenialism (HP) or dispensationalism (D) believes in an atheistic state in which Christ must return for his kindom, why would we not need to speak out against the injustices it(the state) has clearly committed against fellow believers?
How do we know that this nation named Israel is in fact the one into which Christ will return and not another nation of Israel?
It is also the duty of believer to disagree with the injustices performed by Palestinian groups.

I actually support Israel as a (partial) democracy in the Middle East, but not with a blank check. Israel, like any other nation, must be open to criticism when it violates justice and righteousness.

My point is that regardless of your eschatology, Christians must never support injustice in any nation and that includes Israel.

[Guest]

Amen again, Schoel.

[Guest]

Schoel,
Re: helping Palestinian Christians

I got this website from Brother Andrew's recent book about his work there:

www.bethlehembiblecollege.edu

they have a program called, "The Shepherds Society", that helps local Christians there get by.

God Bless You,

Bud

[Guest]

But if historic premillenialism (HP) or dispensationalism (D) believes in an atheistic state in which Christ must return for his kindom, why would we not need to speak out against the injustices it(the state) has clearly committed against fellow believers?
How do we know that this nation named Israel is in fact the one into which Christ will return and not another nation of Israel?
It is also the duty of believer to disagree with the injustices performed by Palestinian groups.

Schoel, I don't agree Israel has targeted fellow believers, i believe they target muslim terrorist leaders usually after a suicide bomber kills many innocent people. If you disagree then i think we should agree to disagree and move on because this really isn't the place for a political discussion.

I don't know that this is the Israel that Christ may return to but i do have some scriptural support which i'll give you. First i want to be clear i'm not dispensational because i don't believe in the literal 1,000 year milleneum. But even without the milleneum it's still possible that God recreated Israel for His own divine reasons.
The last king of Israel was Zedekiah (Ez 21.25-27) and in 606BC he was dethroned by Nebuchadnezzar. Moses foretold that if the jews disobeyed God they would be punished or dispersed 7 times normal. "And if you will not yet for all this hearken unto me then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." Lev 26.18
The warning of 7 times is repeated 4 times and the symbolic time is believed to be 360 years and times this by seven you get 2,520 years which is based on Ezezkial 4.4-6 . Moses indicated this ould be the final punishment so i think this dispersion began with the time of Nebuchadnezzar in 606BC and if you add 2,520 years to this you come to 1914. This was when WW1 started and out of this the Turks lost Palistine and jews were able to immigrate which led to Israel being created in 1948.
Is this proof that God recreated Israel? I think when you weigh this and you consider the fact that Iran is developing nuclear missles and has vowed to destroy Israel it appears in the natural that Israel's future seems bleak. So for Israel to survive it's looking more and more likely that it will take supernatural intervention.

[Guest]

We should support believers wherever they are on this earth including Palestinians. They are our dear brothers and sisters in Christ. But this line of discussion got going because a question was asked about Pat Robertson and his outspoken statements, the last of which was concerning Ariel Sharon giving up Gaza and the stroke he suffered thereafter.

The original question was worded in a way that had a definate negative feeling about Pat Robertson and the following posts had both negative and some positive responses. I'm not a big Pat Robertson fan. I never watch the 700 club and don't even know if it still exixts. But I support him mostly because he speaks out against the strong anti-God and anti-christian wave that is in our country at this time.

When judge Roy Moore was kicked off the Alabama supreme court because He affirmed God and if I remember right opposed the removal of the ten commandments in the court house there( please correct me if my memory is off here) I was deeply disapointed that our "christian " President didn't say one word of support for him. I strongly oppose the immoral and anti God drift in our country. Our beloved country is in serious moral decline and if someone has the guts to speak out againsts this wave of degradation I feel support for them even if I don't agree on every theological point they may hold.

IF people here don't want to have a political discussion I respect that.

[Guest]

Roger -
I apologize as my comments have sidetracked the original thread.
I also appreciate Christian brothers and sisters with platforms speaking out for justice and righteousness against the culture of the world. However, many Christian leaders in America seem to promote political manuevering and Christian politicking as answers instead of the Gospel.
1 Corinthians 2:1-5 (ESV)
And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

That being said, I do honor and appreciate the stands that many have taken regarding abortion and the attempted destruction of the family. While I disagree with their solution, their voices continue to press the issue.