Hell

[steve7150]

if libertarian free will is correct, dogmatic universalism is, IN MY OPINION, impossible unless we're talking about God simply foreknowing that all will indeed freely choose to repent postmortem.





And why couldn't we be talking about God simply foreknowing postmortem repentance. Many folks here insist there is no evidence for UR yet there are quite a few verses that if taken at face value, without reading presuppositions into them sound quite URish. Paul could simply be making a prophetic statement under God's inspiration.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1st Cor 15.22

[mattrose]

And why couldn't we be talking about God simply foreknowing postmortem repentance. Many folks here insist there is no evidence for UR yet there are quite a few verses that if taken at face value, without reading presuppositions into them sound quite URish. Paul could simply be making a prophetic statement under God's inspiration.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1st Cor 15.22

It could be.

But I am an open theist.

[steve7150]

It could be.

But I am an open theist.










OK are you a closet open theist? Anyway how could God state that "in Adam all die" if God doesn't foreknow that not only have all in Adam died in the past but all in Adam will die in the future?

[jriccitelli]

All statements must agree, Paul lays out in detail how you 'must believe' in order to be saved, it makes it very hard to talk if everything said previously is dismissed with the word all. Paul says you must be 'in' Christ to be made alive, only 'in Him' is life, all that are in Christ are made alive, all the rest are still dead.

Once Christ is seen face to face in the next age i think even the wicked and other unbelievers will want to be part of the kingdom of God’ (7150 pg.4)

I was curious, is this idea written into someone’s UR books (i.e. written in Rob Bells book) somewhere?
Still UR has to explain: Why God keeps Himself hidden, why the ‘test’?
Why people rejected Jesus who stood right in front of them doing miracles and raising the dead?
What does this next ‘world or realm looks like where Jesus stands among them and where is this scenario depicted in scripture?
And why was this whole world and the story of man from Adam to Christ created, played out, and detailed in a book full of warnings where we are commanded to 'believe' if it could be accomplished just by ‘seeing’ Jesus?

1) if God does indeed continue to give opportunities to repent post-mortem, and… (Steve pg. 4)

I tend to think scripture speaks of a definite Day/time of Judgment that separate’s the future and present age divided by a Judgment. This thinking spreads out across pre-Christian Judaism and apocryphal thinking. The second chance scenario is a chance to repent, confess Jesus/throw yourself at the mercy of God ‘at the Judgment’ itself, or at some point prior to the final judgment. There is no ‘period’ or ‘opportunities’ of time alluded to post-mortem, maybe just ‘an' opportunity before the Judge (like when you go to court) and then a Judgment.

2) if His patience never wears out until He obtains His object (since infinite patience would be an option for Him)...

It may be an option for God but not for man. You just said man is not infinite; it seems to me that in this UR scenario one stubborn person could continue this scenario into infinity while God continues to try and persuade him. Given the chance I could see some people doing just that, but I don’t see scripture doing that. God will have us for eternity, that will demand His patience for sure, but for the unrepentant I think God has shown He does draw the line somewhere, and soon.

...then it would be predictable that He would eventually wear down the resistance of every last rebel, and all would eventually come to repentance’ (Steve pg. 4)

Given enough time we may all evolve into monkeys again. And I think Murphy was an optimist. The first two are highly hypothetical, thus ’then’ is just as unlikely.

Premise #1 is contested, but not ruled out (even by JR), and no one could reasonably rule-out premise #2.

There is a big difference between standing at the white throne Judgment and being given an opportunity, vs. opportunity’s, I don’t know where, in hell?

Therefore, it is hard for me to understand the insistence that universal reconciliation is impossible—or even unlikely.

Because it makes the whole effort spent on history, the Bible, and this world rather pointless if God had no purpose in all the warnings. God wouldn't even need to exercise time on His patience if all God has to do is reveal Himself, if that happened I don't think His patience would put up with a refusal to that much revelation, so there must be some sense in making 'this' world the test.
And again, this teaching is saying that you will not die, when scripture says you will die unless you repent, and the day is approaching (Heb 10:25).

Isn't this precisely my approach? It is you that are not willing to lay aside speculations about what occurs after the final judgment. I am saying the Bible is unclear. You are the one using the term "unambiguous." (Steve pg.5)

UR is teaching that the Bible is unclear, we are saying that bible is very very clear. How can you say we are speculating, all we are wondering about is the 'length' of punishment, CI says eternal means death, EP says eternal means punishment, no other doctrines are effected or mysterious.

[steve]

"...an unarmed man."

[Homer]

And so the ad hominem continues.......

[Michelle]

’Universal love of God for His creatures’? I think maybe a general love, but not an intimate or relationship love for creatures. This is clear in the fact that this ‘love’ has to synchronized with God destroying creatures and telling us He has the right to do so, I think that is the uniform teaching of scripture.

Hi, jriccetelli. When you are done with this UR discussion (will it ever be done??) could you expound this? I'm really curious about what you believe about God's love. I am pretty sure that for you the topic of love is vast. Maybe it is for everyone, come to think of it. Would you at least contrast for me the idea of "general love" vs. "intimate or relationship love"? I could start a new thread in a different area of the board if you'd like...if you're interested in answering, that is.

[mattrose]

OK are you a closet open theist?

I'm not sure what you're asking here...? I am not secretive about my leanings toward open theism on this message board or in my teaching ministry, if that is what you're asking.

Anyway how could God state that "in Adam all die" if God doesn't foreknow that not only have all in Adam died in the past but all in Adam will die in the future?

It doesn't take knowledge of the future to know that "in Adam all die" since Adam has no life-giving power. Today, in my area, we were without power. I wouldn't need to know the future in order to state that 'in a power outage, all laptops die.'

[steve7150]

Once Christ is seen face to face in the next age i think even the wicked and other unbelievers will want to be part of the kingdom of God’ (7150 pg.4)


I was curious, is this idea written into someone’s UR books (i.e. written in Rob Bells book) somewhere?
Still UR has to explain: Why God keeps Himself hidden, why the ‘test’?








Notice JR i said "i think" meaning it's just my opinion. No one knows why God keeps himself hidden but i'm happy to give "my opinion." I THINK the reason is that God wants us to learn EVIL because to really be what God wants us to be we have to experience good and evil. If God is clearly present the amount of evil would rapidly diminish.

[Michelle]

Notice JR i said "i think" meaning it's just my opinion. No one knows why God keeps himself hidden but i'm happy to give "my opinion." I THINK the reason is that God wants us to learn EVIL because to really be what God wants us to be we have to experience good and evil. If God is clearly present the amount of evil would rapidly diminish.

Interesting opinion, Steve. I'm curious to know more about what you are thinking here. Do mean that you THINK that God wants us to learn EVIL in order to be able to avoid it? Why do you THINK that God prohibited Adam and Eve from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Was it in order for them to disobey and become what God wants us to be?