End Time Events

[dwilkins]

Regarding references to the Gnostics, in the last 50 years there has been some important work done that questions the whole paradigm of gnostic antagonism in the NT. At this point, most scholars agree that there was no such thing as a coherent thing called gnosticism until the early 100's AD (likely about 115AD). This will require a great number of commentators to step back and reconsider their explanations for certain passages that were supposedly designed to argue with Gnostics.

Doug

[TheEditor]

Hi Doug,

That's interesting. Can you point me to any sources? I would be interested in reading more about that.

Regards, Brenden.

[dwilkins]

Three books that speak to the topic, not all from exactly the same point of view, are:

http://www.amazon.com/No-Longer-Jews-Gn ... onger+jews

http://www.amazon.com/Pre-Christian-Gno ... hi+gnostic

http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Gnosti ... gnosticism

[TheEditor]

Thanks Doug.

[TheEditor]

I did a quick read of the book descriptions that you linked. You are right, they come from very different sides of the argument, in fact, one hypothesis stands in direct contradiction of the other, vis-a-vis, dating Gnosticism and it's origins. Where does a boy begin?

Regards, Brenden.

[dwilkins]

The three books I linked have different purposes. "No Longer Jews" makes the point that Biblical Demiurge Tradition (traditionally a variant of Gnosticism) was first seen after the Romans smashed yet another Jewish revolt in Egypt. Those Jews who formulated it were frustrated by the failure of their previous religion and decided to abandon the God of the Bible for something better. The author cites "Rethinking Gnosticism" early in his book, saying that the thinks that Biblical Demiurge Tradition can be salvaged as a coherent definition of Gnosticism, but that "Rethinking Gnosticism" might be right that the rest is incoherent. "Rethinking Gnosticism" simply makes the point that the category is so broad that it basically means nothing. It doesn't directly violate the conclusion of "No Longer Jews" because that author chose a subset to apply the term Gnosticism to. "Pre-Christian Gnosticism" makes the point that there are no verifiable examples of Gnostic writing before the NT was completed, so saying that parts of the NT were written to combat Gnosticism is potentially far fetched. This is especially so if "No Longer Jews" is right that the historical crisis that caused Gnosticism to be formulated didn't happen until at least 115AD. All three books are important and describe different parts of the puzzle.

Doug

[Paidion]

"Pre-Christian Gnosticism" makes the point that there are no verifiable examples of Gnostic writing before the NT was completed, so saying that parts of the NT were written to combat Gnosticism is potentially far fetched.

Personally, I don't think it is far fetched. I think at the time those passages were written gnosticism was in its incubation stage or possibly its infant stage.

[dwilkins]

"Pre-Christian Gnosticism" makes the point that there are no verifiable examples of Gnostic writing before the NT was completed, so saying that parts of the NT were written to combat Gnosticism is potentially far fetched.

Personally, I don't think it is far fetched. I think at the time those passages were written gnosticism was in its incubation stage or possibly its infant stage.

And you are basing that one what research?

Doug

[Paidion]

And you are basing that one what research?

I know nothing about research. My opinion is based only upon what I read. Here are some examples:

This article states, "The first traces of Gnostic systems can be discerned some centuries before the Christian Era."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm

The following article from The Internet Encylopedia of Philosophy states that this "religious and philosophical movement" flourished in the FIRST and second centuries CE. http://www.iep.utm.edu/gnostic/

Miriam-Webster in its definition of gnosticism indicates cults in "late pre-Christian and early Christian centuries."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gnosticism

This article states that gnosticism started in pre-Christian times.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic.htm

The Jewish Encyclopedia states, "Jewish gnosticism unquestionably antedates Christianity."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... gnosticism

The New World Encylopedia states: "Later Christian scriptures, however, directly attack gnosticism," and then refers to I Tim 1:3-4, 2 John 7, and Jude 1:4.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Gnosticism

[dwilkins]

I don't suppose you looked up the sources that the encyclopedia references use? I use articles sometimes too, but when I find a book with extensive footnotes they tend to take precedence. In the end, it might be a battle between books with footnotes, but you haven't suggested you looked at any.

Doug