How can people do good?

[dseusy]

Kenblogton wrote,

So are you saying that to truly I good, I must become perfect?

I think it depends on your definition of good. I think we would all agree that Jesus was a good teacher... but Jesus stated in Mark 10 and Luke 18, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God."

I try to get my definitions from the Bible, so I would say that to be truly good you must become perfect. With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

[dseusy]

Kenblogton wrote,

So we do good when we try to obey all of God's commands?

I think trying to obey all of God's commands leads us to doing/being truly good.

[kenblogton]

Reply to dseusy
I think it depends on your definition of good. I think we would all agree that Jesus was a good teacher... but Jesus stated in Mark 10 and Luke 18, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God."
I try to get my definitions from the Bible, so I would say that to be truly good you must become perfect. With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
So how does God make your good possible?
I think trying to obey all of God's commands leads us to doing/being truly good.
Is that strictly your own effort or does God play a role in it, as your previous post implies?
kenblogton

[dseusy]

Kenblogton wrote,

So how does God make your good possible?

I don't think God makes our deeds good- I think He makes US good in Christ (as a new spiritual creation)- I said I think trying to obey God's commands leads us to being good. I think He is trying to give us a free and needed gift (salvation)- but I'm not sure we receive it until we submit to His righteousness.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God."

I think we recognize (cease to be ignorant) this in a couple ways:

1. Fear God- submit to His laws and adopt his definition of righteousness then apply them
2. Love God- not so much in a performance sense, but in a desiring sense- wanting Him and recognizing our desperate need for a Savior (perhaps as a result of applying such a high standard of conduct and failing to establish our own true righteousness despite valiant effort).

Kenblogton wrote,

Is that strictly your own effort or does God play a role in it, as your previous post implies?

I think God plays the biggest role in our goodness, but I also think Love is honorable- He honors our decisions- either to accept or reject His gift- Himself. However, some of us must strive more than others before we adopt a "Mary spirit". Martha's are abundant- in fact most world religions adhere to some form of morality and goodness and grant salvation based on performance of limited criteria... I say limited because God's laws establish the highest moral "code" on the planet. If being a decent human achieved a right standing before a holy and perfectly righteous, unconditionally loving, and almighty God- then there would be no need of a savior- there would be no need for Jesus to die.

[kenblogton]

Reply to dseusy
I think God plays the biggest role in our goodness, but I also think Love is honorable- He honors our decisions- either to accept or reject His gift- Himself. However, some of us must strive more than others before we adopt a "Mary spirit". Martha's are abundant- in fact most world religions adhere to some form of morality and goodness and grant salvation based on performance of limited criteria... I say limited because God's laws establish the highest moral "code" on the planet. If being a decent human achieved a right standing before a holy and perfectly righteous, unconditionally loving, and almighty God- then there would be no need of a savior- there would be no need for Jesus to die.
I agree that God plays the biggest role. Let me explain why. Jesus says in John 8:31-32 “To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."” and in John 15:5-6 (emphasis added) “"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing [good]. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. "” Jesus had already explained to His disciples in John 6:63 that “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” Deeds must inspired by the Holy Spirit to be good; deeds solely of our own inspiration cannot be unconditionally loving good!
kenblogton

[Paidion]

Deeds must inspired by the Holy Spirit to be good; deeds solely of our own inspiration cannot be unconditionally loving good!

I know of cases in which a non-Christian has given his life to save the life of another person. Is such a deed "unconditionally loving good"?
If not, what was the condition for doing such a deed (which provided no personal benefit)? Or in what way could such a deed not be a loving deed?

[kenblogton]

Reply to Paidion
I know of cases in which a non-Christian has given his life to save the life of another person. Is such a deed "unconditionally loving good"?
If not, what was the condition for doing such a deed (which provided no personal benefit)? Or in what way could such a deed not be a loving deed?
Very likely - only God knows for sure - the giving of one's life to save another's is unconditionally loving good. Christians should not believe God only works in them. The Holy Spirit has been moving since creation. In the Old Testament, He inspired Noah to build an arc which saved humankind, He inspired Elijah to oppose the demon-worshiping priests of Baal and let the people know the truth of God, and He inspired King David to repent after the Bathsheba incident (Psalms 51). I experienced Holy Spirit inspiration 20 years before I was saved, and I've read or heard of a multitude of similar instances.
kenblogton

[Paidion]

I am not sure of your point here, Ken. Are you implying that the Holy Spirit inspires non-Christians who give their lives to save other people? If so, then there is a problem. Let me tell you a little story.

Joe makes the statement to Sam, "All ravens are black". One day, Sam saw several ravens feeding on the carcass of an animal which had been killed by an automobile. Among them was a white one, which Sam took to be an albino. Sam showed his photograph to Joe, saying, "Look at this photo of a group of ravens. One of them is white! So there are white ravens after all."
Joe replies, "That is no proof. The white bird is NOT a raven."
"How do you know?" asks Sam. "It is exactly the same in appearance and structure as the other. The only difference is that it is white in colour."
" You ask how I know it is not a raven? I know that it is not a raven," says Joe, "because all ravens are black".
You see it was impossible for Sam to provide a counter-example because Joe would simply declare any non-black bird not to be a raven. So Joe's belief that all ravens are black is meaningless, since it is impossible to provide a counter-example which Joe would accept.

You have written:

Deeds solely of our own inspiration cannot be unconditionally loving good!

Here is the problem. I have attempted to provide counter-examples to your statement above. You have indicated that they are not really counter-examples, since they, also, were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Thus, your method makes it impossible to provide a counter-example, even in theory. For any counter-example which I provide, you will declare to be a case of inspiration by the Holy Spirit. So if it is impossible in theory to provide a counter-example, your statement which I quoted above becomes meaningless.

[dseusy]

Kenblogton, I agree with you... only God knows for sure.

Paidion, we can only judge a deed (even a giving of one's life for another deed) as it appears on the outside. God judges the heart of the matter- motives come into play. Perhaps someone can give up their life for another for a wrong reason... wrong as defined by God in the Bible. Let's say their pride insisted they do it- to be the righteous person they have convinced themselves they are (apart from Christ)- even though the deed appears to be good, God may judge it as wrong and so it ultimately is not unconditionally loving good. To give this hypothesis a stronger foothold, consider someone from Islam, Buddhism, Christian Science, LDS, etc. giving their lives for another- their religion may outline good things they should do to be saved... most religions adhere to the golden rule- perhaps an individual adhering to their religion (and to solidify the example, let's say they knowingly reject Christ as the Way, Truth, and Life, and do not acknowledge Him as God's Son but have insisted on earning their own salvation by some other means) gives up their life to earn their own salvation, rather than being genuinely interested in the other's well-being. There may be no love in the act... only selfishness and deceit.

God is love... He is the only one who can fulfill the biblical definition of love- that it never fails. How can any human fabricate biblical love? How can anyone, apart from Christ, who is God, who is Love, love? Perhaps they could love a little, but that would be silly because you cannot never fail a little... right?

"...love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4

If everyone who loves is born of God, then everyone not born of God cannot love... if they could, they would be born of God.

[Homer]

But are disciples of Jesus to be totally void of any consideration of self when they do good? Did Jesus appeal to self-interest, or no?

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.

Again and again in the SOM Jesus spoke of the "reward" (Greek misthos, literally pay for services).