Trinity.

[darinhouston]

Plural of majesty? Talking to heavenly hosts? Its a curious thing for sure. But the OT Jews never seemed to have ANY notion of plurality and They we're much closer to the language and idioms than us. This was a bedrock principle for them. To overcome that presumption has a VERY high threshold to my mind.


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[jriccitelli]

“The OT Jews never seemed to have ANY notion of plurality”

True, nor a notion of association. And that is what makes Jesus a blasphemer (yet he rose from the grave).
Jesus is not just a concept, or a photo, he was a person.
He was not just a man, and he wasn’t just an angel, what was he then, to you?

Either I'm missing something or others are. He clearly "associates" Himself with the Father (Darin June 30)

Equate/make oneself equal/associates, you don’t come that close to God without blaspheming. No one can do this in biblical Judaism, yet Jesus does. Works, miracles, etc., associating oneself with God is contempt for Biblical Oneness and the Commands of God. His statements were blasphemous for anyone to make, even if one does miracles or prophesies correctly they were to put them to death if they taught you to go after other gods.

Paidion, Darin, who is the Lord, Jesus or God?

[Homer]

Hi Darin,

You wrote:

But the OT Jews never seemed to have ANY notion of plurality and They we're much closer to the language and idioms than us. This was a bedrock principle for them. To overcome that presumption has a VERY high threshold to my mind.

But when you have repeatedly "God said..." in the creation story and John informs us Jesus was "the Word", and both John and Paul say all things were made "through Him" that would seem to establish that high threshold. If we are stuck with the paradigm of what the Jews thought the OT said we would have to reject Jesus as the Messiah. But we have revelation that they did not have until Jesus came.

And the Jews had in their scripture the knowledge of God as Lord and redeemer, both offices which we assign to Jesus, along with creator:

Isaiah 44:24New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24. Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,
“I, the Lord, am the maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself
And spreading out the earth all alone,


It seems to me if Jesus is not a manifestation of God in the flesh both John and Paul are in serious error.

[TheEditor]

Aren't we making a bit much of the terms "Lord" and "God" in the OT? As I recall, the words "Lord" and "God" are often euphemistically shoved into the OT text in lieu of "YHWH". Abraham was "Lord" to Sarah....as the young people say, "Just sayin'"....

If we are going to really try and hash out centuries of theological debate, maybe there should be at least some common consent on what terms/words/expressions actually carry unique meaning.

Regards, Brenden.

[Paidion]

JR asked:

Paidion, Darin, who is the Lord, Jesus or God?

The apostle Paul seems to have addressed that question:

...for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1Cor 8:6 ESV)

[jriccitelli]

Your verse equates Jesus with God, and as Homers verse above points out (as well as a many other passages): God alone created the earth “Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone” No-one but God is mentioned in creating us and the creation, now you have someone the NT is associating with our Creator, we are only left with the equation of He either is the creator or he is not.
The term Kyrios or Lord is the designation of Deity; it is the name of God and the place of God. Local and many foreign uses of the term reserved the term for God when associated with religion, or God like, especially during the time of Christ. Noted conclusively 100 years BC thru 100 ad. The derivation of the word, its history and use can be researched (Emperor Augustus, Herod the Great, Agrippa, Caligula, Nero, LXX, Qumran texts aside, still). (The Baker New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology is a great place to begin)

When did God ‘stop’ being our Lord? (The term Lord can be best described as owner)

[Paidion]

.for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Your verse equates Jesus with God

Quite the opposite. It diffentiates Jesus from God.

In the verse :
1. The Father" is referred to as the "one God". Jesus is referred to as the "one Lord" (Nowhere is Scripture is Jesus is ever referrerd to as "the Father")

2. God is the one "from whom are all things" whereas Jesus is the one "through whom are all things."

3. God is the one "for whom we exist" whereas Jesus is the one "through whom we exist."

The term Kyrios or Lord is the designation of Deity; it is the name of God and the place of God.

Not so. The Greek term "κυριος" (which you have transliterated as "Kyrios"), in the NT usually meant "lord" in the sense of the master of a slave or in the sense we use it in English, that is, "A man of noble rank or high office."—Oxford Dictionary.And sometimes it merely meant "sir" as in

Then they came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus." (John 12:21 NKJV)

Clearly they were not addressing Philip as a deity, or even as a man of noble rank.

Even Jesus was addressed as "Lord" in this sense, by those who were not his disciples. For example, the Samaritan woman whom Jesus met at the well, who was not his follower, nor was she even Jewish. Yet she addressed Him as "κυριος" (John 4:11,15,19). So did an official (John 4:49) and even a whole crowd! (John 6:34).

Here is the way that the word got associated with the name of God. God's name (which He shares with His Son, Gen 19:24, two Yahwehs in one verse) is "Yahweh". At some point the Hebrews decided to change this name to "The lord" in order to avoid breaking the commandment not to take the name of Yahweh in vain. They thought that if they never pronounced the Name, then they could never take it in vain. So in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew to Greek, the word "Yahweh" is replaced by "κυριος", and so in the New Testament. So the OT statement "Yahweh is my name" was written as "The lord is my name" which seems rather ridiculous since "the lord" is not a name, just as "the teacher" is not a name or "the landlord" is not a name. The name is "Yahweh", and should have been left that way in the text.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[jriccitelli]

First, don’t think your educating anyone, or belittling me with your:

“which you have transliterated as "Kyrios" (Paidion)

Since most Theological Dictionary’s and commentaries in English use this transliteration, such as Strong’s Exhaustive, Thayer’s Lexicon, maybe you think it was ‘my’ translation because you haven’t bothered with these works, as they all do agree with my understanding of ‘Lord’ in the Christological passages.

Nevertheless the Israelites used ‘Lord’ to translate the word for Yahweh (or one of the numerous transliterations of it, unless Paidion knows the correct spelling of Gods name). Since the scriptures and Israelites in general felt Lord was an appropriate designation and indeed ‘name’ for God, then I too am happy with their word. Paidion you probally have the correct word for Gods name in your notes there, but the OT also used the word Adon (Adonai) along side YHWH (YHVH, I’m sure Paidion knows the correct spelling). Sometimes it is Adonai YHWH, or Adonei ha adonim, etc. The NT writers used the same structure and the same verses, the same implication of the passage, and the same meaning the OT carried in these passages. The meaning being that YHWH is Lord, and the Lord is YHWH. The lord is not ‘a’ Lord but ‘The’ Lord. God Himself making the whole argument that He Alone is The Lord, and there shall be no others.

Again who is your Lord, Jesus or YWEH.

In you, Lord, I have taken refuge;
let me never be put to shame.
2 In your righteousness, rescue me and deliver me;
turn your ear to me and save me.
3 Be my rock of refuge,
to which I can always go;
give the command to save me,
for you are my rock and my fortress.
4 Deliver me, my God, from the hand of the wicked,
from the grasp of those who are evil and cruel.
5 For you have been my hope, Sovereign Lord,
my confidence since my youth.
6 From birth I have relied on you;
you brought me forth from my mother’s womb.
I will ever praise you.
7 I have become a sign to many;
you are my strong refuge...
16 I will come and proclaim your mighty acts, Sovereign Lord;
I will proclaim your righteous deeds, yours alone.
17 Since my youth, God, you have taught me,
and to this day I declare your marvelous deeds.
18 Even when I am old and gray,
do not forsake me, my God,
till I declare your power to the next generation,
your mighty acts to all who are to come.
19 Your righteousness, God, reaches to the heavens,
you who have done great things.
Who is like you, God? (Psalm 71)

'Who is the writer speaking of here, Jesus, God, or The Lord?
And in whom have 'you' taken refuge?

[TheEditor]

Someone's a bit testy today....

The Jews were superstitious about the name. That's why we got satcheled with "THE LORD". Being raised a 'dub, there are certain subjects you can phone-in....

Regards, Brenden.