Trinity.

[Michelle]

Who is speaking here, Jesus, God, or The Lord?

A question from your audience: Is this a rhetorical question or a proper question requiring an answer? Either way, isn't David (probably) speaking here? I'm confused.

[jriccitelli]

Got me on that one, I should have wrote 'Who is the writer speaking of here, Jesus, God, or The Lord?
"...For you have been my hope, Sovereign Lord, my confidence since my youth...." (Psalm 71)
(I was thinking of Isaiah and other passages as well, where God is speaking)

Brenden, me testy? You may not know Paidion as well as I do, Paidion lost his patience with me a while ago:

I wish to publically affirm that I admire Steve's longsuffering (two years of patience) toward JR. Had I been in his position, don't think I would have lasted that long (Why is UR harmful? Fri Jan 10)

I am well aware of why we do not know the precise name of God, still the used the name/word Lord for His name. There is One by this name, and no other with this title. The NT uses the same meaning and context: God is THE Lord, THE Lord our God.

So again who is The Lord? Jesus or God?

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[Paidion]

Got me on that one, I should have wrote ...

That should be "I should have written...", O belittled one.

But, I will follow your advice. I don't think I'm educating you.

[jriccitelli]

I don’t want to be sarcastic either, so I appreciate your doctrinal diplomacy as well as your humor.
So because the Spirit compels me, and in the Spirit of Christ I hope: “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Phil 2:11)
For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. (Eph 1)

I can’t help but see the imperative call of scripture, to believe Jesus is ‘the’ Lord, and that there is Only one LORD.

The word Adonai and its Greek equivalent Kyrios was the name the people of Israel used as the name of God in worship, speaking and writing of YWEH. The two are synonymous, and when the Church and the NT writers used the title of Lord to address Jesus they were well aware that they were using the name of God to address Jesus. The Church was well aware that there was only One Lord, and one God, and that by calling Jesus Lord, they were saying Jesus is God. Jesus is Lord is probably the oldest known confession of the Church.
Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! (Psalm 8:1) The phrase is “…YWEH Adonai…” Adonai was His title, as well as YWEH was His name.

[jriccitelli]

So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him (Col 2:6)

Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.” 38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. 39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind” (John 9:38-39, Jesus did not rebuke the worship of himself. And note again the connection to choosing to believe, Jesus did not make people blind, they can choose to be so on their own)

“… that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9. The salvitic formula of confessing Jesus as Lord)

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31)

"... of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:4-5. Note our 'Only' master and Lord who is Jesus, who also saved them from the land of Egypt, and destroyed those who did not believe. Do you believe this?)

And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one. (Zechariah 14:9)

“What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH. (Matt. 12:28-30. Undivided love for God commanded)

"You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve Him and cling to Him, and you shall swear by His name. 21 "He is your praise and He is your God, who has done these great and awesome things for you which your eyes have seen” (Duet.10:21, Serve who?)

For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said, "THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!'" (Matthew 3:3. Who is this One referred to by Isaiah? Who is coming? The Lord God is coming)
"A voice is calling, “Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God. (Isaiah 40:3. Who is coming?)

Behold, the Lord GOD will come with might, with His arm ruling for Him. Behold, His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him. (40:10)
Like a shepherd He will tend His flock, In His arm He will gather the lambs, and carry them in His bosom; He will gently lead the nursing ewes. (40:11. Is this Jesus or YWEH? Who is our Shepherd?)

“Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him? 14 With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge, and informed Him of the way of understanding? (40:13-14. Rhetorical, right?)
“To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare with Him? (40:18)
“To whom then will you liken Me, that I would be his equal?” says the Holy One. (40:25)
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth (Isaiah 40:28)

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.12: 3)

To open blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from the dungeon and those who dwell in darkness from the prison. 8 "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8. Didn't Jesus quote this verse, then sit down?)
"For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another. (48:11. Jesus did share the Glory, how?)

“Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 2 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit” (Psalm 32:1-2)
“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them” (Romans 4:7-8)
YWEH

"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live" (1Cor 8:5-6. KYRIOS is the WORD)

[Paidion]

I have just discovered from the Online Bible lexicon that "adonay" is an emphatic form of "adon". The latter word is used of people, just as "lord" in English is used. Sarah called Abraham "adon". It is true that every or almost every instance of "adonai" refers to God, whereas "adon" usually refers to human lords.

The Septuagint translates BOTH words as "κυριος". Apparently there is not another word in Hellenistic Greek which distinguishes between the emphatic and non-emphatic forms. The emphatic form was used by the Hebrews out of respect in reference to God.

However, like "κυριος", both the emphatic and non-emphatic forms are not names. They indicate as position or rank. But even if "adonay" WERE a name, that would not prove that Jesus and the Father are the same divine Individual. Justin Martyr indicated that the Father and the Son share the name "Yahweh", that there were two who were called "Yahweh", one in heaven who was the source of the destruction of Sodom and one on earth through whom He caused the destruction. Justin quoted Gen 19:24 as evidence of this. Abraham addressed as "Yahweh" the One who remained with him and spoke with him. This One was the son of God.

I am not certain wherein we disagree. Are you saying that the Father and the Son are one and the same divine Individual? Or do you merely want to apply the word "Lord" to both the Father and the Son? If the latter, I have no problem with it.

[jriccitelli]

Just noticed your response Paidion. Trinitarians do not say Jesus and the Father are the same individual, they say He and the Father are ONE God. They are both individuals, and the two of them compose the One God.

The words Father and Son are unique to their individual person, but the descriptions and titles: God, Lord, King, Rock, Creator, Redemmer, Savior, El Shaddai, El Olam, El Elyon, etc. are titles that Only apply to the One God of Heaven and Earth. Jesus and the Father make up the One God.

Scripture is aware there are lords many, as there are kings many. And there is no direct law against having earthly kings and lords, but the ruler and Lord of all things in heaven and earth is One. There are not two.
Scripture has a mandate that allows for nothing other than Jesus being God, because if he is not then Christians have another Deity that is blasphemy to Judaism.
And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one” (Zachariah 14:9)
"There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, nor is there any rock like our God’ (1Samuel 2:2)
“… as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him” (1 Cor.8:6)

Judaism and Islam understand this, in fact that is their main point: God has no equal. Christ made himself equal with God, and Christians worship Him as equal with God. Jesus is the Lord, or he is not, that is the question and the point.
And i believe the answer defines our understanding of who it was that died for our sins.

[jriccitelli]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsWukSytdTU

The Trinity, or the Deity of Jesus, is the center of the Muslim arguments.
Above is a link to this Muslim who goes around doing street witnessing converting people to Islam. He is good at making converts, but he is manipulative, wrong and full of fallacies. In this one of many videos by this Muslim man, he makes the Christian (Daniel) sound incorrect, yet only because the Muslim never lets the Christian finish his sentences. Every time i listen to this, i realize the Christian is very very good in his argument, but the Muslim only once lets him talk without talking over him.

[Paidion]

Just noticed your response Paidion. Trinitarians do not say Jesus and the Father are the same individual, they say He and the Father are ONE God. They are both individuals, and the two of them compose the One God.

You have told me nothing I don't know, JR. I am well aware that Trinitarians believe in a compound "God" made up of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But the fact is that there is nothing in scripture that describes such a "God", and none could be quoted as even suggesting a Trinity other than 1 John 5:7, and that verse is known to have been added. No Greek manuscript of 1 John contains it until the ninth century. I understand that initially it was a footnote.

Note only that, but not one of the 1174 occurrences of the word "God" or "god" in the New Testament refers to a Trinity. The vast majority of them refers to the Father alone.
Indeed, Jesus prayed, as recorded in John 17:3, "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." Would He have called his Father "the only true God", if He were also the only true God? Furthermore, with the phrase "and Jesus Christ whom you have sent", He indicates that He Himself is other than the only true God.