Trinity.

[jriccitelli]

The plurality within the Godhead is implied in the OT.
Again, is God your Lord, or is Jesus your Lord?

[Paidion]

For me, there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1Cor 8:6)

[TheEditor]

Greetings,

Most of the reading I have done over the years about the Bible indicates that the Gospel of John evidences a more "advanced" Christology, if you will. Skeptics will often point to this as evidence that it was written later in church history. We would have to admit that there appears to be a more "divine" Christology in John's Gospel--note his short treatise on the Logos and the light of the world in Chapter one. Regardless, I accept the testimony, and believe that John penned it in the 90s, which is the concensus opinion.

However, I will say this; I find it odd that John didn't perform due diligence in clearing matters up on this issue. As Paidion pointed out,

"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." Would He have called his Father "the only true God", if He were also the only true God? Furthermore, with the phrase "and Jesus Christ whom you have sent", He indicates that He Himself is other than the only true God."

Indeed, a plain reading of that prayer to the Father that Jesus made does give the reader the impression that Paidion has. Wouldn't this have been the perfect opportunity for John to clear up a few things? But he didn't. This being said, how important was this particular Christology (trinitarian) to the Apostles? Why is it more important today?

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

More important today? It was kinda important then, remember they were Hebrews.
The other writers and Disciples were calling Him Lord and the Son of God, this is enough to make them blasphemers. John gave us more reason to know Jesus as they knew Him. The other biblical writers gave us reasons to believe He is Lord, John just gives more reasons.
Jesus does not come right out and say he is the Messiah either. Just as he did not reveal Himself to Moses fully, and the disciples along the road to Emmaus, God has always kept Himself veiled and hidden is a purpose. I mentioned before you have to take into account the purposeful hidden-ness of God, and the mystery of revelation. God doesn’t reveal Himself out in the open, but rather it is a matter of the heart and reason. That doesn’t change the fact that YWEH (Jehovah) is the Lord forever, and for believers (like Abraham) there is only One Lord.
At the end of the day, it is simple math, a simple 'test', you shall worship none other than God.

So then, if Yeshua is your Lord, is YWEH not your Lord?

(Remember Scripture said YWEH will be Lord forever, and there is only One Lord, and there is no-other)

Do you worship Jesus?

[Homer]

JR asked:

Do you worship Jesus?

And we have:

Luke 4:8, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8. Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”


Literally here "Lord the God of you", with the article (the) seeming to rule out worship of any other. And this is where the issue seems more than a trivial matter. I think in most churches Jesus receives as much or more worship than the Father. If Jesus is only deity, He would seem to be a second God. Seems to me only a Trinitarian or at least binitarian concept would allow for worship of Jesus. And did the earliest Christians not worship Him?

[TheEditor]

Without geting into another discussion (this seems to always happen, feels like "bait and switch" to me...) on the Greek words latreia and proskyneo, I believe Jesus can receive the latter definitely, and perhaps the former, Father willing.

JR, I never said that it wasn't important then. You twisted my words. My point was, John didn't dope out an elaborate Christology, nor did he make the kind of definitive statements that much later councils did. Why? Seems that would have been a huge bugaboo for the Jews.

Since you have never addressed my "Was the baptism of John from God or from men?" type of questions, neither am I inclined to answer yours, to wit; "Is God your Lord, or is Jesus your Lord?" Life's a two-way street JR. When you actually answer one of mine and stop changing arguments and ignoring old posts, then I'll tackle yours.

Regards, Brenden.

[Paidion]

Jesus spoke to his Father as to another person. Clearly the Trinitarian position as well as my own recognize the Father and the Son as two different divine Individuals, and both positions recognize Jesus as divine, and in that sense is "God". So why is my position regarded as "belief in two Gods" whereas, the Trinitarian position is "belief in one God"?

If the Father begat Jesus at the beginning of time, and He was "the only begotten God" (John 1:18 in the earliest manuscripts), and if He and the Father are One (John 10:30) and if whever has seen Jesus has seen the Father (John 14:9) [since the son is Another exactly like the Father, and is the exact imprint of the Father's essence (Heb 1:3)], and if I am in agreement with all of these scriptures, how can it be said that I believe in two Gods?

Belief in two Gods implies that these two Gods could be at loggerheads with each other, and have differing wills. I am not aware of any Christian who holds to that concept—certainly not I.

[Homer]

TheEditor,

You wrote:

Without geting into another discussion (this seems to always happen, feels like "bait and switch" to me...) on the Greek words latreia and proskyneo, I believe Jesus can receive the latter definitely, and perhaps the former, Father willing.

I hope you are not feeling "baited and switched" but I seriously seek to find the answer to whether it is or is not proper to worship Jesus. If it is not, I, and most Christians would appear to be in a fix. If Jesus can receive proskyneo that would at least hint of His part in the godhead, it seems to me as the scriptures seem to rule proskyneo out in the case of saints and angels:

Acts 10:25-26 (NASB)

25. When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped (proskyneo) him. 26. But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.”

Revelation 22:8-9 (NASB)

8. I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship (proskyneo) at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9. But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship (proskyneo) God.”

I can find no place in the NT where the verb letreuo or noun latreia is used in reference to worship of Jesus but I did run across something I hadn't noticed before:

Revelation 22 (NASB)

22. Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2. in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4. they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.


What caught my eye is that throne is singular in both places and if we see God who will we see since God is said to be invisible? But if Jesus is God what I have noticed here makes sense.

[TheEditor]

Hishtachawah which is the Hebrew word and I believe equivelant of the Greek proskyneo is engaged in, in the OT, at times by servants of God to angelic messengers (Joshua 5:13), or by a pagan King to one of God's prophets (Daniel 2:46). The act of bowing may or may not have a religious meaning. Either way, "Kiss the Son lest God be angry" comes to mind, and I have no problem with God instructing His servants to "worship" His Son.

Those of the "synagogue of Satan" in Revelation were to be made to "worship before your [true worshippers'] feet and make them know I have loved you." (Revelation 3:9-10) Clearly Jesus was not telling apostate Jews to worship Christians.

I am not sure what to make of the "throne" in Revelation that you cited. Being a symbolic book, I don't know if much can be made one way or another, since this is the throne that believers are also said to occupy. (Revelation 3:21)

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

Brenden, I did think someone else wrote your post to me, since it seemed different from your usual good-natured style. I could not be sure what was ‘that’ bugaboo was exactly. And I really love any question, I try to respond to all the comments, it is hard to address them all. I’m sorry I didn’t see your question, or are your saying there was a ‘type’ of question, or did you ask me about the Johns baptism question (John’s baptism/authority was from God). I looked back thru many recent posts and didn’t see a question, please repeat it. Thanks.

Paidion, true two Gods would be at odds with one another (as I sometimes explain to the Mormons). We agree then, there is One God, Yeshua and Yweh are one, and they are the One God, right?