Trinity.

[Jose]

Jose, who is Jesus to you then. Is He a created being, or is he God?

Hi JR,

I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. That is what God Himself revealed to Peter and I don't feel safe affirming much more beyond that.

I trust that Jesus was being truthful when in His prayer He said that His Father is the only true God. (John 17:3) This tells me that Jesus is someone other than the only one who is God.

I believe Paul when he said that for Christians, the Father is the only one God that exists. (1 Cor 8:6) This shows me that Paul is in agreement with Jesus about who God is.

I also believe that both Jesus and Paul (and all the apostles) affirmed the Jewish creed that the Father alone is God and that He is one. (Deut 6:4) In Mark 12 Jesus said that the foremost commandment is that His Father, Yahweh, is one, and that we should love Him with our whole being.

I consider these verses to be biblical creeds that are unambiguous and unmistakeably declare who God and Jesus are. I think that they can be easily understood and that any scripture having to do with who Jesus is should be examined in light of these.

Jesus is someone other than Yahweh. He is Yahweh's son, the human Messiah who was completely filled with the Spirit of Yahweh, to do and say all that Yahweh wanted.

Let me just say that I grew up my whole life believing that Jesus is God. I believed it because that is what I was told true Christians are supposed to believe. For a long time I just accepted it but at some point I began to examine the trinity doctrine a little more closely and after about eight years I came away believing that unitarianism is a better alternative.

On the practical side, abandoning the trinity doctrine has allowed me to honor both Christ and the Father with greater clarity. The Father is God and Jesus is his Son whom he made to be Lord of all the earth. It's really not complicated. To me, the trinity doctrine has a way of confusing things. So much energy is spent trying to prove that Jesus is God, that the Father gets lost in Christ's shadow. You, yourself have said that Jesus is the one who spoke to Abraham and Jesus is the God who gave Moses the law and that Jesus raised himself from the grave and it was Jesus who created everything including his own body that he was going to inhabit. Do you see what I'm trying to say? Where is the Father in all this? Jesus said that God his Father created man, male and female. The scripture says at least a dozen times that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Do you realize that it was actually an angel who spoke to Moses in the bush? (Acts 7:30, 35) It was God, not Jesus who caused Mary to conceive in her womb. God is the head of Christ, not the other way around.

Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? (Mal 2:10)

Thanks for asking me what I believe, take care.

[Paidion]

Anagogical...I learned a new word today!
Thanks, Brenden!

I was too stupid to recognize it as an unfamiliar word. I thought Brenden had made a typo and had meant to type "analogical".

[jriccitelli]

‘You seem to get derailed everytime I bring in ancillary information. I jokingly referred to your "engineer's mind" once; but seriously, Are you an engineer? People that I have had dealings with that are engineers always seem to lose the forest for the trees’ (Brenden)

I am surrounded by ancillary information in church, and yet high tech friends and engineers everywhere else (my dad was an electronics engineer too). I enjoy barbeques, dancing, fun and antidotes to the utmost, so please don’t misunderstand me (and I love the forest too, note I have a forest as the banner on my FB page).

The forest is the Law priesthood and sacrifices. And I see the Cross within the forest from which it grew, not separately, or alone without the background. Nor do I see Christ The Son without seeing the surrounding forest of precepts, towers, pillars and unmovable stones and foundations that He laid down to confirm who He was. He did this so we would recognize Him, that is, if we truly knew Him and believed His Word. In my opinion, jus sayin.

“But last of all he sent unto them his son…” (Diz)

The parable in Matthew 21 is scripture, doctrine and prophesy, it makes us think to look back over a lot of parallels and connections from the Old testament, and it is amazing. That is what I’m talking about. For instance this parable is not a moral hung on nothingness, this parable is ‘grounded’ in Gods commands, truths, and Who God is (with no variation or turning, James 1:17).

Editor, you mentioned considering binitarianism, and that is great. Note that I rarely refer to my belief as Trinitarian, I use it only because others bring it up, and yet it is my label. The foremost point is that Jesus is not another god, He is God, that is most important. Like I said before, we would be Modalists, if it were not for the fact Jesus made a point of having a both equality with the Father and distinction from The Father, and conversation with Him (but Jesus was never distinct from God). The Only reason we believe further that the Spirit is also a distinct person: is that Jesus speaks The Spirit as distinct from Himself and The father, but not distinct from God. We have to reconcile this fact (the distinction) with scripture. Yet, since the role of ‘The Spirit’, Jesus says, is to bring Glory to the Others, then I will let the Spirit reveal Himself if he wishes, and not so dogmatically.

[jriccitelli]

“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was’ (John 17:3)

‘This tells me that Jesus is someone other than the only one who is God’ (Jose)

Jose, in this verse Jesus even refers to Himself in the third person. Throughout the Whole book of John Jesus has equaled Himself with God, yet affirmed His humanness at the same time. Look before and after the verse. You do see the problem of anyone or anything equating itself with God, especially after God Himself has declared God has No equal. Jesus affirms He was before He was born, and He affirms He is returning to His glory with God in this very passage. This is blasphemy in the context of scripture, no one and no thing can say this. Only God can equal Himself with Himself, that is a Gods Command. Jesus is speaking here during His ‘incarnation’. Jesus was not always incarnate. Remember: He is also King, Lord, Priest and Savior, yet when He spoke these words he was still only a humble preacher, servant and was going to be killed. Jesus did not act or officiate as Lord Priest and King either, because He was a on a temporal mission. We can reconcile His incarnation with His previous and future Authority and place, because He is God. No one else but God can assume that Authority and place. Jesus affirmed this mandate, before His incarnation, during, and He is now Lord just as He was before.

You also quote 1 Cor 8, but note here, that Paul equates Jesus more than once with Deut 6:4, and Paul says "there is but one Lord Jesus Christ. Paul knew what he was saying by calling Jesus the One Lord: God is The One, and Paul just put Jesus in the place Only God can dwell.
‘… for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ’ (1Cor 8:6). ‘The only true God - The only God, in opposition to all false gods. What is said here is in opposition to idols, not to Jesus himself, who, in 1 John 5:20, is called "the true God and eternal life’ (Barnes Commentary)
‘The only true God—the sole personal living God; in glorious contrast equally with heathen polytheism, philosophic naturalism, and mystic pantheism… The knowledge of God and a creature could not be eternal life, and such an association of the one with the other would be inconceivable" (Jamieson Commentary)

[Homer]

Jose wrote:

Why this doctine has become a cherished doctrine upon which all truth in Scripture hinges, I'm sure I'll never know.

There is one practical reason I have concern personally regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, and that is this: God demanded that He alone was to be worshipped:

Exodus 34:14 (NASB)

14. —for you shall not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God—


Jesus affirmed that God alone was to be worshipped, yet people worshipped Jesus and He accepted their worship, not only not stopping it, as Peter did at the house of Cornelius, but accepting it.

The Greek word for worship is proskuneo and this word is used for worship of the one true God, for worship of Jesus, and for worship of idols. It does not mean one thing in one case and have a different meaning in another.

And so we worship God and worship Jesus, yet are commanded to worship only God. If Jesus is not God it seems obvious to me we have a big problem. It may be a mistaken impression, but it seems to me in the modern church most of the worship is directed toward Jesus. I would be interested in hearing if others have the same experience.

It does not solve the problem in my mind to say Jesus is "God stuff, a lesser God, or He is not God but He is deity. A deity is a God. I am trying to make sense of not only what scripture says but with what people did with Jesus' approval.

[Jose]

Jose wrote:
Why this doctine has become a cherished doctrine upon which all truth in Scripture hinges, I'm sure I'll never know.

Hi Homer,

I think the quote above was by TheEditor, however you do have a valid concern regarding worship. If I may, one thing I've learned is that proskyneō (worship) is not limited to God, Jesus or idols. It has become that to us in our modern usage, but it had a much broader use in the Bible. The word simply means to do homage, or to bow down. As such, it is used many times with regard to people of rank or someone who is in authority.

The Hebrew word for worship is shachah, and it is translated in the Septuagint as proskyneō. In both the Old and New Testaments, men and angels are "worshiped" as well as God.

Lot "worships" angels.
Abraham "worships" the Hittites.
Jacob "worhips" Esau.
Ruth "worships" Boaz
Abigail "worships" David's servants.

Israel worshiped David and God at the same time with the very same Hebrew and Greek words.

Then David said to all the assembly, "Now bless Yahweh your God." And all the assembly blessed Yahweh, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and WORSHIPED (LXX proskyneō) Yahweh and the King (1 Chronicles 29:20)

All Israel worshiped (proskyneō) both God and King David because David sat on the "throne of YAHWEH." He was anointed to exercise Yahweh's authority over Israel just as the resurrected man Jesus was anointed to be over the angels (Heb 1:9). The Greek word proskyneō was used to bow down in submission to any higher authority.

In Revelation 3:9, Jesus uses the word proskyneō to refer to Jews worshiping Christians.

"I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept my word, and have not denied My name. Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie--I will make them come and worship (proskyneō) at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you."

The angel in Revelation did not receive "worship" from John because he said that "he was a servant, just like him." In other words, the angel did not have authority over the apostle. The same thing applies to Peter; he did not consider himself superior to Cornelius so he stopped him from "prostrating in reverence" (note for proskyneō in the NASB). Jesus, on the other hand, accepts worship because he has been given complete authority over all, and God commands even the angels to proskyneō him.

I hope this helps you in figuring it all out.

Jose

[jriccitelli]

On the practical side, abandoning the trinity doctrine has allowed me to honor both Christ and the Father with greater clarity… the Father gets lost in Christ's shadow. (Jose)

On this I can understand. I also noticed that God often seemed forgotten in some Church or bible talk. There may be a number of reasons for this, but I think the main reason is the down play and or lack of understanding of the Old Testament within popular Christianity (and people not wanting to accept that The God of the Old Testament is very much alive, and indeed Christ Himself. Yet the term Father is still spoken of enough though, and predominantly in a lot of Christian prayer)

When I speak of The Father, I am speaking of God (especially Gods Father type role with me. His strong caring personal love, forgiveness for me and my family)
When I speak of The Christ I am speaking of God (especially his personal friend relationship with me. Visiting, walking and eating with us, and understanding Gods ability to relate to me as human)
When I speak of The Holy Spirit, I am speaking of God (especially Gods inward dwelling in me. The relationship with my spirit in the Spirit. A deep inner knowing and assurance of Gods presence)
When I speak of God, I am speaking of all of Them (Knowing that in God I can have all three relationships, and that God can be, and do, all of these things. And, in and with all of Them, I lack nothing)

The Father can be understood as: Above us. The relation of a Great Father. Security, Shelter and Provision, power, Omniscience, Omnipotence, but I do know all of Them are All these things.
Jesus Christ can be understood as: With us. The relation of a person, of a Great Friend, and King.
The Holy Spirit can be understood as: Within us. A relation of inner presence and depth. And a knowing that fills us.

God uses the terms and distinctions Father Son and Spirit, not because God is like a human or created being, but because 'we' are created beings (remember there is no Mother God, unless you are Mormon). These are only anthropomorphic terms to help us grasp the relationship God wants to have with us. We remember that God says that He is not a man (by nature). We are not exactly like God, or even close. We are warned by God not to think God is like us, so we must consider that in our understanding of God, and what that means.

‘Jesus is the one who spoke to Abraham… Where is the Father in all this? (Jose)

Such a statement understands that God is the Father, Son and Spirit. So the Father is always included, but a manifestation or word of God in the Created physical world is a special revelation or incarnation, to us.

[Jose]

Hi Homer,

I just wanted to add that the Magi worshiped Jesus because he was "King of the Jews," it is doubtful that they did so because they believed Him to be God. Also, in Revelation, Jesus and God are worshiped, but for different reasons.

God, the Almighty, who sits on the throne, is worshiped because He created all things.

"And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created." (Rev 4:9-11)

Jesus is also worshiped, not as God Almighty., but as the Lamb who is worthy because of what He accomplished.

1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?"
3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,
4 and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.
5 And one of the elders said to me, "Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.
8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" (Rev 5:1-12)

Then, both God and Jesus are worshiped together, just like God and David were.

13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped. (Rev 5:13,14)

[jriccitelli]

Jesus is also worshiped, not as God Almighty' (Jose)

Jesus is God, so God is worshiped. The passage does call Him Lord and Creator, so He is God, and remember Jesus is Creator also. You have to consider chapter 1 of this book first of all.
There is a difference in what David, a worldly king receives (yet David is the 'type' of Jesus). No ONE can have the place of LORD or KING of all heaven and earth. There is a huge difference in the Worship reserved for God. And it is the same for Lord. LORD of ALL, all HEAVEN and Earth. And for us, as believers we can but have and worship but one Lord and King.

And remember they were not supposed to have a human king, God was their King. But they wanted a human king like their neighbors, so God granted them one (after warning them first). This lesson resulted in our knowledge that a human king fails morally, and positionally. We learned from Israel's human kings that a human cannot be a true moral king. This also spoke of our want for a human king, and Gods willingness to meet with us in this request. And God did meet us, but remember that God alone is The Only Good King, and The Only King with whom we were supposed to know in the first place. That's the lesson we should know. In Christ we have a Great King and Lord. Who is God and Who cannot fail.

[Jose]

Jesus is God, so God is worshiped. The passage does call Him Lord and Creator, so He is God,

JR,

I know you believe Jesus is God, but simply stating so over and over doesn't make it true. You are making completely unsubstantiated claims! Could you please point out, where exactly, the passage that I quoted (Rev 5:1-14) calls Jesus Lord and creator?