Trinity.

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Jose
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Jose » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:37 pm

TheEditor wrote:
Hi Jose,

Peter writes that believers will become sharers in the divine nature, and yet I don't believe that any Christians think they will become God.

Regards, Brenden.
I heartily agree, and I understand that to be immortality and glorification. We will share those qualities with God.

In trying to understand Paidion's view though, I can't escape the thought of polytheism based on his use of John 1:18 as God begetting God. If the Son is begotten with ALL the attributes of deity, then there are two, aren't there? As I said, I'm probably not grasping his paradigm entirely.

Jose

Jose
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Jose » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:38 pm

Paidion wrote:Thank you Jose, for your honest inquiry. May God be with us, as together we seek truth and reality!
Amen!

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:29 pm

Jose wrote:Thank you for your comments. I've tried to wrap my mind around your view, but I always end up seeing two gods. If a human has an offspring who is truly human, the result is two beings who are truly human. In the same way, (presupposing that this was God's first act before creation and Jesus' incarnation), if God's offspring is truly divine, then there are two beings who are truly divine, resulting in two gods. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something from your analogy, but if not, this makes John 17:3 very difficult for me to understand.
First let me affirm that there is only one true God, as Jesus stated according to John 17:3. There are several scriptures which indicate that there is but one God, that is one “true God”.

...for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Cor 8:6 ESV)

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. (1Tim 2:5 NKJV)

...one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Eph 4:5,6 ESV)


This is why I say that in a sense I am a unitarian since Jesus addresses his Father as “the only true God” and Paul wrote in the passages above that there is one God, and he distinguished this one God from Jesus our Lord. So Jesus is NOT God in the sense of being the one true God. He is a different Individual. I capitalize “Individual” in recognition that Jesus is essentially divine, that is divine in essence just as the Father is, because of his having been begotten by the Father.

But there is another sense in which “God” is used in the New Testament. It is a reference primarily to the divine essence with the Son shares with the Father in virtue of having been begotten by Him.

I think the Logos mentioned in John 1:1 is indeed the Son.
“The Logos was with God”. In that clause "God" has the article preceding it. That is “The Logos was with THE God.” Here the word “God” refers to the only true God. The next clause, “The Logos was God.” (Don't emphasize “was” as so many do when they read this clause. Rather emphasize “God”).
Here the word “God” is NOT preceded by the article. If the clause were in natural order, it would read, “The Logos was a god” as in the New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses. But the word order is changed. It is the same word order as “Your word is truth (or “reality”) (John 17:17). “Truth” or “reality” is the kind of thing God's word IS. It is also the same word order as in “God is love” (1 John 4:8, 16) Love is the kind of thing God IS. So in the clause, “The Logos was God”, “God is the kind of thing the Logos IS. That is the Logos is God-essence. He is the only Being other than the Father who is of God-essence. Another passage which uses God in the sense of one who is of God-essence is John 1:18 in the earliest manuscripts e.g. papyrus 66:

No one has ever seen God; the only-begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known.

In this one sentence, the Father is called “God” and the Son is called “God”. The Father is the only true God, but the Son may be called “God” in the sense that He is of God-essence. Thus the word "God" in the New Testament, can refer to (1) the only true God (2) God-essence, and (3) Anyone who is of God-essence (and only the Son qualifies).
I'll need to consider Hebrews 1:3 a little more, but for now, the only way I can understand Jesus' begetting, is in terms of his birth from the womb, and his birth from the grave. I think the phrase "Today I have begotten you" in Psalm 2 is speaking proleptically about his resurrection, with Paul declaring it's fulfillment in Acts 13:33.

"that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'" (NASB)


Let's examine the passage in Acts in detail. Paul is addessing the Israelites about two matters: the fact that (1) God begat Jesus and sent Him to earth, raising Him to be a witness to the Jews, who when they became his disciples then became witnesses themselves to their people and (2) that God raised Jesus from the dead.


29 And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead,
31 and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people.
32 And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“ ‘You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.’


By begetting Jesus as God's first act, God raised Him as a witness to reveal God to the people as He really is, and not the way the Jews understood Him to be. Then Paul says “And as for the fact that He raised Him from the dead...” That is, Paul is now talking about the resurrection, a different topic.

34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,
“ ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ (Acts 13:29-34)


Just a note of explanation. I didn't dream up this understanding of the Father and the Son. I got it from early Christian writings. I first understood the initial begetting of the Son from Justin Martyr. Then I realized that the same thing was taught in the New Testament. Justin wrote:
Justin wrote:“I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, a certain rational power from Himself,
who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: ‘If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established. Before all the hills He begat me. God made the country, and the desert, and the highest inhabited places under the sky. When He made ready the heavens, I was along with Him, and when He set up His throne on the winds: when He made the high clouds strong, and the springs of the deep safe, when He made the foundations of the earth, I was with Him arranging. I was that in which He rejoiced; daily and at all times I delighted in His countenance, because He delighted in the finishing of the habitable world, and delighted in the sons of men.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Trinity.

Post by dizerner » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:35 pm

If the act is already settled prior to the time is is executed, how does the agent have any choice at the time of execution?
The agent's will is the source of settling the choice, that is to say, the reason the choice is settled is not found outside the agent but inside. Another way to put it: we are locked into the choice we freely choose, for we cannot choose what we will not choose. This is why past choices are still free even though they have no uncertainty to them, and also why future choices can be made in the present. For example, I can choose today that I will never enter the country of Canada by my free will. I can choose to never change my mind--no matter how fickle I may be, that choice is truly available to me. The reason most people are so fickle is that they choose now to not choose for their future. So if I choose now to never enter Canada by my free will, have I then lost my free will because now that I've chosen that I can't choose anything else? We are locked into our free choices, we cannot ever do anything we don't choose, but when that decision is a made in the center of our will, at that point there is a God-like freedom to our choice, in that sense that the agent itself creates the choice ex-nihilio (out of nothing), and he creates the choice with no outside determining influences (by him or herself). He is free to choose among the options given him, but he is not free to not choose what he chooses. This is merely to show that if a dice always rolls 6, as you stated, at first we don't necessarily know why the die is rolling 6. That die is free if it is the cause of its own roll, regardless of whether anyone knows it ahead of time.

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darinhouston
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Re: Trinity.

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:49 am

We might want to start a new thread for the "openness" discussions as to free will, etc.


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jriccitelli
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Re: Trinity.

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:06 pm

First, there is no indication in the Bible that "God became Man in the incarnation" (Paidion Jan 31)
‘And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace’ (Isa 9:6)
‘… sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh’ (Romans 8:3) ‘But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law’ (Gal 4:4) “rather, He made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’ (Phil 2:7) ‘Since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity… For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God’ (Hebrews 2:14-17) ‘Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me” (Heb 10:5)

It is clear that Jesus came from heaven and ‘became’ a man. Jesus existed in heaven before Earth. Paidion’s idea would have Jesus existing as a separate being from God in the heavens before coming to Earth. This idea has Jesus as a Divine being in heaven who is not God, who is separate from God. This is exactly the gods and polytheism that God condemned from book to book. The idea of 'another' Divine being or entity in heaven besides God, is no different from the Greek, Egyptian, Hindu or other polytheistic gods of the other nations. The God of Israel says over and over that He Alone is God. God says God is the Only God in The heavens and That God Alone Created, continues to work, sustain and cause all things to continue, all this Alone. Yet the NT claims Jesus can do all these things and that He was with God, the whole time;
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together (Colossians 1:16)
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6 that men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these (Isaiah 45)

God is still Causing well-being and creating calamity and who does all these things since the beginning and today. Yet Paidion has Jesus (who is not God) apparently taking over at the beginning, and creating. We know Jesus and God are One, and they are One God because there is Only One God ALONE who is 'Causing well-being and creating calamity and who does all these things'. Jesus is Lord of All.

Paidion's idea says Jesus came out of the Father. Yet Paidion says Jesus is not another God. Paidion also says Jesus is only God in a sense Paidion must be ignoring all the warnings of having other gods (and JWs and fall into the same error, yet refuse to acknowledge it. At least Mormons admit their polytheism). God warns us of having gods in any other sense, before, above or below. There is no sense of having other gods. Especially when God Commands us to not even hear or know or consider other gods.

Why is polytheism wrong? Think about it, you have two (or more) separate wills Creating, making Laws, moving space and matter. As much as Eastern religions and isms want to believe their gods can all function as One, they are either One God, or they are NOT. Only Monotheism has a God of One Will because there is Only ONE GOD. They are either many ACTING as one, or they are ACTUALLY One. I think there is evidence that this is the reasoning that made monotheism and the monotheism of the Israelites more reasonable and sensible than the polytheism of other ancient religions, especially the Greeks.
‘The vast majority of cases in scripture which speak of "God" are references to the Father alone’ (Paidion)
For one, just the word father would indicate that God is not alone. Again this word would have to be a metaphor or anthropomorphism, unless God is ‘actually’ a Father to a Son. We do not disagree God alone is The Father, but it never says the Father is alone. Scripture says that God is Alone, not the Father. Scripture speaks of ONLY One God who is alone.

Paidion tries to take the begetting of Jesus to a literal anthropomorphic sense. Scripture says God is the Father of creation, because scripture says we are God's children, and yet man is created out of dust. So the very few OT references of Father (such as Isa 63:16, 64:8, Jer 31:9, Malachi 1:6, 2:10) are understood to mean God ‘created’ Israel and man, this is indeed a metaphor, God did not inseminate the earth.

So these are indeed metaphor or anthropomorphic terms. Until we get to Jesus, yet Jesus does not use Father in the sense of being created by God, or in any physical sense, ever, when Jesus speaks of 'His' Father. Jesus never uses ‘Father’ as a term defined as Jesus actually being birthed by God, or having God parenting (graphic) as with human fathers (an anthropomorphic sense). Yet Jesus does 'not' use the term as a metaphor: so the term father must by definition: be anthropomorphic, only (having nothing to do with Divinities actual birthing).

In the NT the term Father is used in a new way, yet the term is often used only by Jesus, and almost always by the NT writers along 'with' the Name of Jesus, almost never is the term Father 'alone without Jesus', because the Two are One:
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ / Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ / Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ / To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ / He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son / Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! / Jesus said to them,"If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God / Jesus knew that the Father had given him authority over everything and that he had come from God.

"Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them" (Acts 14:15)

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jriccitelli
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Re: Trinity.

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:04 pm

‘Many church leaders are very myopic, and dare I say, cult-like in the way they present "essential" truths. The trinity, so I was told, is what distiguishes true Christianity from the cults’ (Jose Feb 2)
God then is very myopic. There is no stretch here. The 3 major bible based religions are monotheistic. Most 'every' religion and ism has other gods and men who become gods. Only historic Christianity is Trinitarian. No other non bible religions are trinitarian, it is a very clear and most unique distinction. God said There is Only One God. The term trinity or trinitarian only identifies Christianity as Monotheistic.
‘I may not get things completely right, but I know that the Shepherd isn't a hireling’ (Jose Feb 2)
'The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want. 2He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside quiet waters. 3 He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake' (Psalm 23)
‘A Psalm of Asaph. Oh, give ear, Shepherd of Israel, You who lead Joseph like a flock; You who are enthroned above the cherubim, shine forth! 2 Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh, stir up Your power And come to save us! (Psalm 80)
But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel), 25 From the God of your father who helps you, And by the Almighty who blesses you’ (Genesis 49)
'Along the roads they will feed, And their pasture will be on all bare heights. 10 "They will not hunger or thirst, Nor will the scorching heat or sun strike them down; For He who has compassion on them will lead them And will guide them to springs of water' (Isaiah 49) “And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.” (Matthew 2:6)
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish’ (John 10:27)

Jose, the sheep know The Shepherds voice. Yet Is not God our Shepherd? And yet do not all the scriptures speak of Christ? Do you not hear the words of Jesus' voice when you read Gods Word, in the Old Testament?
“With weeping they will come,
And by supplication I will lead them;
I will make them walk by streams of waters,
On a straight path in which they will not stumble;
For I am a father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.”
10Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
And declare in the coastlands afar off,
And say, “He who scattered Israel will gather him
And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock’
(Jeremiah 31)
Is this Jesus, or God? Don’t we recognize Christ is the one speaking? Aren’t these the words of the Lord, our God? Is not the voice that is speaking throughout the Old Testament ‘The Word’ of God? Who is your Shepherd Jose, is not God our Shepherd? Or is there another?

“I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31)

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darinhouston
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Re: Trinity.

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:55 pm

Lectures on The Principles of Unitarianism
Lecture 10 – (By J. S. Hyndman, 1824)


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It appears that this introduction of John’s Gospel was written in opposition to the Gnostics, a sect, or rather a multitude of sects, who, having learned to blend the principles of philosophy with the doctrines of Plato, formed a system most repugnant to the simplicity of Christian faith. The foundation of the Gnostic system was the incorrigible depravity of matter. Upon this principle they made a total separation between the material and the spiritual world. Accounting it impossible to educe out of matter anything good, they held that the Supreme Being, who presided over the innumerable spirits that were emanations from himself, did not make this earth; but that a spirit, very far removed in character and rank from the Supreme, formed matter into that order which constitutes the world and gave life to the different creatures that inhabit the earth. They held that this spirit was the ruler of the creatures he had made, and they considered men, whose souls he imprisoned in earthly tabernacles, as experiencing under his dominion the misery that necessarily arose from their connection with matter, and as totally estranged from the knowledge of the true God.

Most of the later sects of the Gnostics rejected every part of the Jewish law, because the books of Moses gave a view of the creation inconsistent with their system. But some of the earlier sects, consisting of Alexandrian Jews, incorporated a respect for the law with the principles of their system. They considered the old dispensation as granted by the Demiourgos, the maker of the world. They held him to be incapable, from his want of power, of delivering those who received it, from the thraldom of matter; and they looked for a more glorious messenger whom the compassion of the Supreme Being was to send for the purpose of emancipating the human race.

Those Gnostics who embraced Christianity regarded the Christ as this messenger, an exalted Aeon, who being in some manner united to the man Jesus, put an end to the dominion of the Demiourgos, and restored the souls of men to communion with God. To this Demiourgos the Christian Gnostics gave the name of Logos. And as ‘Christ’ was understood from the beginning of our Lord’s ministry to be equivalent to the Jewish name Messiah, there came to be in their system a direct opposition between Christ and Logos. Logos was the maker of the world; Christ was the Aeon sent to destroy the tyranny of the Logos.

We have the authority for saying that the general principles of the Gnostic system were openly taught by Cerinthus before the publication of the Gospel of John. The authority is that of Irenaeus, one of the Fathers who lived in the second century, who had in his youth heard Polycarp the disciple of John, and who retained in his memory till death the disclosures of Polycarp. There are yet extant of the works of Irenaeus four books. In one place of that work he says the Cerinthus taught in Asia that the world was not made by the Supreme, but by a certain power very far removed from the Sovereign of the universe, and ignorant of his nature. In another place he says, John wished by his Gospel to extirpate the errors of Cerinthus, “and that he might show that there is one God who made all things by his Word.” And with the same view, John wrote his Gospel: “These are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ;” that is, that Jesus and the Christ are not distinct beings—the one a man, the other an Aeon.

Though the Evangelist does not mention the name of Cerinthus, it was necessary, in laying down the positions that were to meet his errors, to adopt some of his words, because the Christians of those days could not so readily have applied the statement of the apostle to the refutation of those doctrines which Cerinthus was spreading among them. And as the chief of those terms ‘Logos,’ which he thus applied to a vicious spirit, was equivalent to a phrase in common use among the Jews, and had just been used by Philo, a learned Jew from Alexandria, in some books he published before our Savior’s death, and had probably been borrowed by the Cerinthians; John, by his use of Logos, rescues it from the use of Cerinthus, and restores it to a sense corresponding to the dignity of the Jewish phrase.

You will perceive from this introduction the fitness with which the Evangelist introduces the word Logos in this proem, although it had not been used by the other Evangelists who wrote before the errors of Cerinthus.

Before proceeding to ascertain the precise import of the passage, I shall give that translation of the words which I conceive to be the most natural and correct. “The Word was in the beginning, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word. All things were through it, and without it nothing was that was. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness overspread or admitted it not. It was in the world, and the world was through it, and the world knew it not, &c.”

This translation is an exact rendering of the original, and is the translation adopted in Wickliffe’s Bible, in the old English translation authorized by Henry VIII., and by Luther in his German translation; also by Dr. Lardner, Dr. Priestly, Mr. Wakefield, &c.

The Cerinthians supposed that Logos was a distinct being from the Supreme, and not God himself considered in the energy of his power, the sense attached by the Jews to the phrase, ‘the word of the Lord.’ John, by saying that ‘God was the word,’ teaches them that the Logos was not, as they supposed, an intelligent being. The Cerinthians further supposed that the Logos was the supreme artificer of the world. To overthrow this notion, John informs them that all things were merely through the Word; that the Word was merely the instrument in creation. And this Word was declared to be God, ascribing the creation of all things to the Word as an instrument, was but a peculiar mode of informing them that all things were created by God himself, as the supreme architect. Thus their notions of matter and the creator of it were overturned.

According to the Gnostics, the Christ, the light of the world, came into the territory of another to emancipate men from the tyranny of their maker. And in opposition to this idea it is that John speaks of the Word as having “come into its own.” In some of the systems of the Gnostics, the ‘only begotten and Logos‘ were different Aeons. Here it is implied that there is no real distinction between them; that, indeed, Jesus Christ who was flesh, a proper human being, was the real Word and the only begotten of the Father.

It may appear rather strange that God should be represented as an attribute, and as being that which is afterwards represented as the medium of creation, and that personal actions are attributed to the Word. But, as to the latter, when we consider how common the use of the figure of personification was at the time this Gospel was written, and that it was the constant custom of the Jews to personify the Word, by which they meant Jehovah considered in his authority, commanding or creating power and energy, the mode of speech here adopted seems just what we might have expected it. The same observation serves to remove all difficulty from the first noted particular; for God may be spoken of as doing this or that by means of any of those attributes which the performance of the specific work calls more specially into exercise; while it is at the same time clear that those attributes are not instruments abstractly considered or viewed apart from the voluntary mind in which they inhere, and which is of course the real cause and the only proper agent.

The Scriptures evidently afford some instances of this form of expression. For instance, “By the word of the Lord were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.” “By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens, and his hands have formed the crooked serpent.” In the first passage it is evident that ‘the breath of his mouth’ is synonymous with ‘his word,’ indeed, in both is evidently meant the active commanding might of God, displayed in its creative energy. As the Scriptures speak of God doing certain things through his might, through his power, through the breath of his mouth, through his wisdom, his will, his mercy, and his goodness; so John emphatically declares, in language that would be well understood at the time it was written, that “all things were through the Word.” As to the identification of the Word with God, it is in the style of many other passages of Scripture, some of which, as in John’s Epistles, represent God as light, as love, &c. Since God is thus spoken of, because holiness and benevolence are inseparable from his nature, as that without them he would not be what he is; so, in like manner, God is called the Word, because active power, creating energy and might, are essential to his existence. And what foundation is there in all this for the Deity of Jesus, or even for the personality of the Word?

The translation I have proposed, which undoubtedly appears to be correct, and which is also according to the order of the words in the original, determines the meaning of the Word to be the power of God , and God himself. This was the meaning attached to it by the Jews, and in their signification of it the Evangelist would certainly use it. It has been affirmed, that by ‘the word of the Lord,’ the Jews understood an intelligent being, and that Philo and the Targums give personal names and ascribe personal actions to the word. There are certainly a few expressions in the Targums respecting the Word apparently of a personal kind; but there are also thousands in the Old Testament of a similar kind equally strong, which yet confessedly do not imply that the subject spoken of is a person. We should therefore regard such expressions as imply the Word’s personality in the same view as the other, viz. as idioms of the language. For instance, what more than a strong personification can we understand in the following words of the wisdom of Solomon, which refer to God’s judgments in Egypt? “Thine almighty Word leaped down from heaven out of thy royal throne , as a fierce man of war into the midst of a land of destruction, and brought thine unfeigned commandment as a sharp sword, and, standing up, filled all things with death; and it touched the heavens, but it stood on the earth.”

We know that the Jews had no revelation respecting the existence of a being distinct from God, called the Word. Whence could they have derived the knowledge of such a being? Justin Martyr, in his dialogues with Trypho the Jew, expressly ascribes to him the opinion which he endeavors to refute, that the Messiah would be simply, as to his nature, a man. The early Jewish converts thought the same, and so did those among the later Christians, who boldly appealed to antiquity against the confusion introduced into church theology by identifying the Word with the Son of God. The Word, they say, is not the Son of God; but only an attribute, a faculty, a property of the divine Nature. It is the man Jesus Christ who became the Son of God by the communication of the Word.

It is well known, says Dr. Lardner, that in the Chaldee Paraphrases it is very common to put Mimra Jehovah, the Word of the Lord, for Jehovah or God; and that the Jewish people, more especially those of them who were most zealous for the law and most exempt from foreign and philosophical speculations, used this way of speaking commonly, and by the Word, or the word of God, understood not a spirit separate from God, but God himself, as St. John does.

As to Philo’s writings, in which the Word is called ‘the Son of God, the image of God, the instrument of creation,’ there is no evidence that John had ever seen them, neither is it certain that Philo did not borrow both his ideas and language from the school of Plato. Moreover, several very learned Trinitarians have seen cause to believe that Philo had no conception that the Word was an intelligent being; that he considered it was nothing else than the conception formed in the Divine Mind of the work he was to execute. But supposing it could be proved that the Jews did suppose the Word to be an intelligent being, the Evangelist’s declaration, that “God was the Word,” is inconsistent with their notion.

I shall here quote the illustration that Dr. Watts has given of the meaning of this passage.

“The great and blessed God, considered in his own nature, is far superior to all our thoughts, and exalted high above our most raised apprehensions. And because we are not capable of taking in heavenly ideas in their own sublimest nature, God has been pleased to teach us the heavenly things that relate to himself, in earthly language; and by way of analogy to creatures he has let us know something of what God is.

Among all the creatures that come within the reach of our common and obvious cognizance, human nature is the most perfect; and, therefore, it has pleased the great and glorious God, by resemblances drawn from ourselves, to accommodate the descriptions of himself to our capacities. When he speaks of his own nature in the language of men, he often uses the names of human parts, and members, and faculties, to represent his own properties and actions thereby, that he might bring them within the notice of the lowest capacity and the meanest understanding among the children of men. Therefore he speaks of his face, to signify the discovery of himself; his eyes to describe his knowledge; his heart to describe his thoughts; his hand and arm to signify his power and activity; and his mouth to denote his resolutions or revelations.

But since in the composition of human nature there are two distinct parts, a soul and a body, and the soul is much the nobler and more exalted principle, it has also pleased God to rise above corporeal images, and to describe himself, his attitudes, properties, power, and operations by way of analogy to a human soul. We know by our own consciousness, or by an inward inspection into ourselves, that our soul or spirit is a being which has understanding, and will, thoughts, inclinations, knowledge, desires, and various powers to move the body. Therefore our Savior has told us, God is a spirit, and the brightest and sublimest representations of God in Scripture, are such as bear an analogy and resemblance to the soul of man, or a spiritual, thinking nature.

As the chief faculties of our souls are the power of the mind and will, or rather a power of knowing, and a power of acting, so God seems to have revealed himself to us as endued with two divine faculties, his word or wisdom, and his spirit or efficient power. It is by this word and this spirit, that he is represented in Scriptures managing the great concerns of the creation, providence, redemption and salvation: and these three, viz. God the Father, his Word and his Spirit, are held forth to us in Scripture as one God, even as the soul of man, his mind and his will, are one spiritual being. Since reason and scripture agree to teach us the nature of God, and inform us who and what God is by this analogy, I think in our inquiries on this sacred subject, we ought to follow this analogy so far as reason and Scripture allow us. Now it is evident that a human soul, in its nature, is one conscious mind; and it is utterly inconsistent with the nature of it to have two or three distinct conscious principles, or natures, in it, that is, to include two or there different conscious beings; and since we are told that God is one, and God is a spirit, it would be something strange if we must believe that God is two or three spirits.—If there be some distinctions or differences in the Divine nature greater than of relations, modes or attributes, and less than that of substances, I know not what name to give it better than that of divine powers. Let us therefore suppose the great and blessed God to be one infinite spirit, one conscious being who possesses real distinct, or different powers, which in sacred language are called the Word and the Spirit. And though this difference or distinction be not so great as to allow of different consciousnesses, or to make distinct spirits, yet these two powers may be represented in Scripture in a figurative manner, under distinct personal characters.

May not the human mind and the will be represented in a personal manner, or as distinct personal agents, at the least by a figurative way of speaking, though they are but two powers of the same soul? May I not use such language as this: ‘My mind has labored to find out such a difficulty; my will is resolutely bent to pursue such a course?’ And many other common expressions there are of the same nature, wherein the mind and will are still more evidently and plainly represented as persons.

And since human powers are thus represented as persons, why may not the word and the spirit, which are divine powers, be thus represented also? And why may not God be represented as a person transacting his own divine affairs with his Word and his Spirit under personal characters, since a man is often represented as transacting human affairs with his understanding, mind, will, reason, fancy, or conscience, in a personal manner?

With respect to the term person, since neither Scripture itself applies it to the Word or Spirit, nor the elder nor later writers of the church have confined themselves to the use of this term, I can see no necessity of the confinement of ourselves or others to it, when we are speaking of the pure distinctions in the Divine Nature. And when we are endeavoring to explain them in a rational manner, and to form and adjust our clearest ideas of them, I think we may use the term, divine properties, or rather divine powers, for this end. Perhaps this word, powers, comes nearest to the genuine ideas of things, so far as we can apply human words to divine ideas, and this word, powers, makes the distinction greater than properties, and I think it so much the better. But we have several precedents for the use of both of these terms among the ancient writers.

The divine Logos seems to be represented, both in Scripture and in the primitive writers, as much distinct from the Father as the same essence admits of, or as distinct as may be, without another conscious mind. Now this seems to be something more than a mere attribute; and therefore I call the Logos a divine power; imitating herein both the ancient Jews and the primitive fathers, who call him frequently Sophia and Nous, and Dunamis Theou, and particularly Clemens Alexandrinus, who makes him Patrike tis energeia. But since God and his co-essential Word do not seem to have two distinct consciousnesses, or to be two distinct minds, this eternal Logos can hardly be called a person, in the common and literal sense of the term, as a distinct man or angel, but only in figurative and metaphorical language.

The Spirit seems to be another divine power, which may be called the power of efficience; and although it is sometimes described in Scripture as a personal agent, after the manner of Jewish and eastern writers, yet if we put all the Scripture relating to this subject together, and view them in a corresponding light, the Spirit of God does not seem to be described as a distinct Spirit from the Father, or as another conscious mind, but as an eternal, essential power, belonging to the Father, whereby all things are effected.

Thus it appears, that, as outward speech and breath are powers of the human body, as reason and vital activity or efficience are powers of the human body, as reason and vital activity are powers of the human soul, so the great God in Scripture has revealed himself to us as a glorious Being, who has two eternal, essential, divine powers, which in condescension to our weakness, he is pleased to describe by means of analogy to our souls and bodies; and this he doth by terms Logos and Pneuma in Greek, and in English, Word and Spirit.” [1]

I shall conclude this lecture by giving another view of the passage which has been entertained by some. I shall state it in the words of Dr. Lawson, and add his reasons in support of it.

He maintains that it cannot be the design of the Evangelist to treat here of the metaphysical nature and essence of the Divinity, but of the relation in which he stands to us as the author of our spiritual life; and that otherwise the context would be without any connection. He supposes that by ‘the Word,’ the Evangelist means (what is meant by it in all other places of Scripture) the Gospel. His translation of the passage is what I have preferred. The following is his defence of it.

“If there is any weight in the objection urged against this rendering, it appears to me to be altogether in favor of it. For it is usual with St. John, and indeed it is a propriety of style, to omit prefixing the article to the predicate, when the predicate is to be understood in a more general or indefinite sense, and to prefix the article, when it is to be taken in a more particular or definite sense. Thus in 1 John i. 6, one of the instances brought to support the objection, God is styled Light, without the article; because it is meant indefinitely, not restricted to any particular object. But let us see how it is circumstanced when the Evangelist uses it definitely, and to signify a particular light, for example the light of the Gospel. It is used in this definite sense in the 4th. verse of chap. i. A still more pertinent example we find at verse 8, “He was not the light,” viz. that particular light which enlightened the world, that is, the Gospel light. Here the article is prefixed, and I believe it is to all predicates throughout this writer, which are under the same circumstance of definiteness or restriction to a particular object, with Logos, in this case. So that, supposing the evangelist to mean the Gospel, by this word Logos, it is quite agreeable to his style to prefix the article to it. Out of the many instances to this purpose, I shall produce chap. vi. 35, 48, 50, 51, in which texts the article serves to specify or define the word to which it is prefixed, just as the English article the does, and which for the same reason we use it in translating, viz. “I am the bread.” But at the 55th verse of the same chapter, where the predicate is left more indefinite or general, the Greek article is omitted; nor can we prefix the English one in the translation without altering the sense. See also John viii. 12. & xiv. 6. 1 John v. 5. the latter of which, according to the objection, should be rendered, ‘the Christ is Jesus,’ ‘the Son is Jesus,’ if the last clause of John i. 1. is not capable of any other rendering than, ‘the Word was God.’

St. John seems to mean no more by these words than to preface his account of the Gospel, which he styles, the Word, with the high original of it. This was, he tells us, from God himself; for that in the Beginning, before it was published to the world, it ‘was with God;’ God was the Word, the original author and giver of it. It “was in the beginning with God,” lay hid from the foundations of the world in the eternal counsels of the Almighty. All was done by him, the whole was from God; and without him was not any thing done of that which has come to pass; that is, every part of the Gospel Dispensation, published by Jesus Christ, was from God; and whatever works he wrought in confirmation of it, not one of them was of himself or came to pass without God.”

“But then, it may be thought that, taking ‘the Word’ in the sense I have given it, viz. for the Gospel itself, it sounds extremely harsh to say that ‘God was the Word.’ To which I answer, that the harshness objected to, arising from the peculiarity of St. John’s phraseology, will be found in favor of the translation I have offered. For what is more common with this writer than to say of God, that ‘he is light, or truth, or love?’ And also of Jesus Christ, that ‘he is the way, the truth, the life,’ nay, ‘the resurrection?’ To assert that ‘God was the Word,’ is not more harsh than to say, ‘God is love.’ When St. John thus expresseth himself, he does not mean to affirm, that God is that very thing by which he calls him, or that God and love are the same thing. We very well know what his meaning is, that God is possessed of that very thing or quality whereby he names him, in this instance, of love and good-will to his creatures.

So again, when our Savior according to this Evangelist saith, ‘I am the resurrection,’ he means not to affirm that he and the resurrection are one and the same thing; but that he is the author of our resurrection to life, some such word being always understood in this kind of phraseology. And therefore when it is here asserted that ‘God was the word,’ the meaning is natural and easy, viz. that he was the author or giver of the Word which came by Jesus Christ.

Once more, with regard to the harshness of the expression, ‘God was the Word.’ Is it more harsh than that we have in the vulgar translation, ‘the Word was God?’ So far from it, that, if we were not used to it (and use will reconcile to any thing), this last would appear intolerably uncouth; and, even under our present prejudice from custom, will appear strange enough considering how these other similar phrases sound constructed as this has been. Reverse these sentences, ‘God is love; God is light; Christ is the resurrection;’ and read them thus, ‘love is God; light is God; the resurrection is Christ;’ and then say which of these constructions sounds the most harsh; or whether the last be capable of any sense being affixed to it. The case is just the same with respect to the expression in the text. If our translators had rendered it as they have all other phrases similar to it, viz. ‘God was the Word,’ we should have the more easily understood it, and interpreted it in the same manner with the other texts, viz. God was the author of the Gospel dispensation.

But it may be made an objection that this Word is said to have existed ‘in the beginning,’ which manner of speaking may seem more agreeable to the common interpretation and to refer to the person of Christ, as the Gospel did not exist till his coming into the world, and therefore had not a being, was not (as is here asserted of the Word) in the beginning. To which I answer, that nothing is more common with the writers of the New Testament, that to represent those things as having had existence from the beginning which was always designed by God to come to pass and were promised in the Prophets. And as this was more especially the case of the Gospel so we find it represented throughout Scripture as having existed in the eternal counsels of the Almighty. Hence the expressions which occur in 1 John i. 1, 2. Matth. xxv. 34. Ephes. i. 4. 1 Cor. ii. 7. Ephes. iii. 9. 2 Tim. i. 9. Rev. xiii. 8.

There is one objection more that may be made, and that is, that this is not the only place in which the word (Logos) seems to relate to the person of Christ, for this title is given to him both at the 14th verse of this chapter and also in Rev. xix. 13.

But in both these places this title is given to him on account of his being the minister of the Word or Gospel to men, and this relates not to his dignity in a prior state of existence, but to his office on earth. Thus ‘he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood;’ here is a manifest reference to his humanity; ‘and his name is called the word of God,’ as having been the minister and publisher thereof to men.

And this is quite agreeable to what the Evangelist has asserted in the other passage, viz. at the 14th verse of the chapter in which our text is, not indeed according to the present translation ‘the word was made flesh,’ but according to one no less literal and more agreeable to the original.

For by flesh (sarx) is plainly meant (and all agree in it) man. It is equally evident that the word egeneto, here rendered was made, might, more agreeably to the original, have been rendered became. This verse therefore may be full as literally and more exactly translated thus, viz. ‘And flesh, that is, a man, became the Word, and dwelt among us, &c.’ As God had before been styled the Word, as being the author of it, so Jesus Christ is here styled the Word as being the publisher of it. The Evangelist had asserted that God was the original author of the Word; that he did all that was done, properly speaking; that in him was that life, that word of life, which was the light of men, bringing them to the knowledge of God, whom, before, the world knew not, though he was in the world and the world was made by him. He now tells us, that it came to pass that the Word of God was published to the world by a man. The Word was still the Word of God, and not of man: but whereas, in the beginning, it was with God, and no one else, it was now with men, come forth, as it were, from God, and come down from heaven in to the world, being committed to a man, the man Christ Jesus, to publish it to the world. Accordingly, becoming the Word, he is said in this same verse to be ‘full of grace and truth.’ Now this grace and truth of which he was full, can mean nothing else than the Gospel, the word of God (O Logos tou Theou), for it is put in opposition to law. ‘The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth,’ or the true grace, that is, the Gospel, ‘came by Jesus Christ,’ ver. 17. Jesus Christ therefore at the 14th verse, is not called the word, with respect to his office in this; since the Evangelist is contrasting the law given by Moses with the word which came by Jesus Christ.” [2]

Indeed, whether we adopt Dr. Dawson’s translation, or ‘Flesh was the Word or was made the Word,’ or ‘the Word was flesh or became or was made flesh,’ the passage affords no ground for the pre-existence, much less the incarnation or hypostatic union of Christ; and there is one circumstance that may very naturally be taken into view in order to account for the peculiarity of the Evangelist’s language; which is, that as in John’s Epistles, so here the Evangelist had in view the error of the Docetae, who maintained that Christ had no corporeal nature. Or we may suppose that the evangelist in saying, ‘that the word was flesh,’ or that ‘flesh became the Word,’ wished to show that the true Word was not a spiritual Aeon, but a real human being. And possibly he may have intended by the expression also to show, that since the real Word was of a corporeal nature, matter could not be depraved, as they supposed it to be.


Endnotes:

1. See Dr. Watts’ Treatise, entitled, “The Arian invited to the Orthodox Faith,” Part 2. Back to top

2. See illustrations of several Texts of Scripture, by B. Dawson, LL. D. Rector of Burgh, in Suffolk. Back to top


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jriccitelli
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Re: Trinity.

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:48 pm

Darin, Is there any 'specific' point in all this. Please underline or highlight the points. I would rather read what 'you' have to say on these things. i do have an enormous library of other religions, cultic and non-christian books of my own that i could sit down and read through, and many that argue for the many such other Deities and gods. I could just post endless blocks of Christian writers too, so at least take the time to write.

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Re: Trinity.

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:49 pm

Uhh -- yes... perhaps I could have written an intro, but as the title suggests it is a 19th Century lecture presenting a lengthy argument for a unitarian view of God. This is what the topic is about. It presents in article form many of the points made in this thread in a coherent manner -- it should be of interest to anyone following this thread. Resources of this nature are very hard to come by.

You certainly don't need to read it, but it is interesting and well reasoned.

It does present a perspective not really brought out in this forum to my knowledge about the context and potential purpose behind John's gospel which certainly presents a very different perspective in John's introduction than what we see in mainstream circles. He suggests that John was writing in the milieu of Gnosticism and explains how much of the language and treatment makes better sense when viewed as a reaction and response to those gnostic views at the time and not as a primer on the nature of God written to address our own notions of God.


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