Trinity.

[Jose]

Christ and the Father are both King of kings and Lord of lords, because that is a title only fitting of God.

I agree with you that God is the supreme ruler, but "king of kings" is an honorific title that is not strictly reserved for God only. Daniel and Yahweh himself bestow honor to King Nebuchadnezzar by addressing him with the same title.

[jriccitelli]

Jose, I am glad you are thumbing through the Prophets, and yes there are gods many, lords many, and kings many. And many were to arise after King Nebuchadnezzar, but Daniel first said, “Let the name of God be blessed forever and ever, For wisdom and power belong to Him. 21 “It is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings’ (2:20-21).

Daniel is interpreting Neb’s dream, Neb certainly had the ‘appearance’ of a king of kings, and truly to the people in that area he was. But was He really? No. “You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome’ (verse 2:31)

“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever’ (44) ‘Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face and did homage to Daniel, and gave orders to present to him an offering and fragrant incense. 47 The king answered Daniel and said, “Surely your God is a God of gods and a Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, since you have been able to reveal this mystery” (2:44, 46-47)

Your making my case Jose, other gods and kings set up worship of themselves, and men make images of gods in their image and yet we are repeatedly warned to not trust in or have any other but God – Alone:
‘Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, the height of which was sixty cubits and its width six cubits; he set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon. They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: "O king, live forever! 10 "You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image’ (3:1-5) ‘But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever, For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom endures from generation to generation. (3:34)

Jose, for ‘us’ there is but One KING and LORD. Amen.

[jriccitelli]

It's God's Kingdom, but Jesus has been granted full authority to rule over it, and once the last enemy is defeated, Jesus will hand the Kingdom to God and will himself be subject to Him, so that God will be all in all. 1 Cor 15:20-28. (Jose)

How can the Son (Jesus) who is God give the kingdom back to the Father who is God?

They can each give whatever they have to one another and still be One God, and One King (so that God may be all in all).

For example, if my wife and I are truly one (and we try to be), and wife gives me all the money in our joint account, it is still her money because we are still truly One. Jesus is not handing His Nature back to God, the Son is just handing the Kingdom back to the Father, and yet they both are One, One God, therefore One KING. Their person does not inhibit their being One.

I believe it is for our perspective that God uses this language (Father, Son, Kingdom) and it helps us understand the act, process, time, means, our place, Jesus sacrifice, victory and His role in the redemption of His Kingdom. We are brought into the Kingdom by Faith in Christ, yet everything we know from the beginning has told us to place our faith in God. Jesus overcame because He died and lives, and we with Him, and then we are brought with Him and placed with Him into Gods Kingdom (and the emphasis is on Only through Christ and His blood). Thus this Kingdom will be fulfilled because of this process, and no other way. A spiritual process that is understood by man, by the anthropomorphic terms of Father, Son, and Kingdom.

The significance of the Gospel and The Incarnation, does not, and cannot, contradict or remove what we have known and believed from the beginning 'there is Only One Lord and God forever'. We will always know this, and at the same time we will always remember it was God who saved us Himself by His own blood, by His own Arm, for Himself, thus the anthropomorphic terms used to explain this in the scriptures. The OT and the Prophets set the stage, and prepare the way for Christ:
'Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. 7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it' (Isaiah 44:6)
‘As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight… He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 “His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Luke 3:4, 16-17)
I don't know who you suppose John is preparing the way for, or who the King of Israel is, and who will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire, and who baptizes you, but I always figured this would be God: God is the King of Israel.

‘Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel’ (Mark 1:14) ‘As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN." (Mark 4:10-12) ‘They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus… (Acts 28:23, 31)

[Jose]

Jose, I am glad you are thumbing through the Prophets, and yes there are gods many, lords many, and kings many.

and...

Your making my case Jose, other gods and kings set up worship of themselves, and men make images of gods in their image and yet we are repeatedly warned to not trust in or have any other but God – Alone

Hi JR,

I've not mentioned anything about there being many gods or people making images of themselves or trusting in false gods, so it's quite a stretch to say that I've made a case for anything you've said. I stated that the title "king of kings" is not used exclusively of God and that it was God himself who used that title of Nebuchadnezzar. That was all I said.

Jose, for ‘us’ there is but One KING and LORD. Amen.

JR, "for us, there is one God, the Father"

[jriccitelli]

A stretch? Jose, you quoted Daniel, and Daniel said all that. Your citing Daniel certainly doesn’t make a case for anything you've said, but it does make the case that other kings are nothing, that God alone is King, and that 'His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom endures from generation to generation' (Daniel) ‘… keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen’ (1 Tim 6)

Jose, for ‘us’ there is but One KING and LORD. Amen. (Me)

I wasn’t quoting a verse (1 Corinthians), just a general statement. Paul also says that 'There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all' (Eph.4)

[Jose]

A stretch? Jose, you quoted Daniel, and Daniel said all that. Your citing Daniel certainly doesn’t make a case for anything you've said...

JR,

Daniel said a lot, and I didn't "quote" any of it. I only said that Daniel and God called Nebuchadnezzar "king of kings." That's all, nothing more.

I'm not sure that you really understand what my point was even though I've clearly stated it three times now.

[dizerner]

There can be a king who is over other kings, like Nebuchadnezzar. He wasn't king of every king of all time. He was a king of kings, not the king of all other kings. If Yahweh or Daniel says to Nebuchadnezzar that he is a king of (other) kings, that is not saying he is the real King of kings, and so couldn't be considered a title, even as he, Nebuchadnezzar, acknowledged that God bestows kingship on whomever He wishes.

We can safely say, that if Jesus is just a king over some other kings, but not all kings for all time, he doesn't have a name above every other name, and would not be referred to as the title "King of kings and Lord of lords," as that would not be fitting. A king "of some other kings" could hardly be compared to the title "King of kings," and was used in the case of Nebuchadnezzar merely as a descriptor of the extent of his reign at the time.

...which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet.

However, to be the overcoming God-incarnate he had to lay aside his divine attributes and submit to the Father and depend on the Spirit.

[Jose]

dizerner and JR,

It's quite incredible to me that one simple statement of fact could cause such a stir.

Is there something in particular on this "king of kings" topic that you are trying to convince me of?

[jriccitelli]

' ... king of kings" is an honorific title that is not strictly reserved for God only' (Jose)

King of Kings" is an honorific title that is strictly reserved for God only. And God is the only King forever and throughout eternity. So if you accept Jesus as your King, you still must hold onto this first statement: God is the Only King eternal, to be biblical. That is all there is to that.

[jriccitelli]

Here's an example of what I consider to be a clear statement: "Hear O Israel, YHWH is our God, YHWH is one." I believe that's easy enough for anyone to understand and embrace. I also take it very seriously, especially since Jesus said that it is the foremost commandment. On the other hand, you and millions of others believe that YHWH is three. They way I see it, you are disagreeing with a very clear statement’ (Jose)

If someone believes Jesus is One with God, yet not God, then they are disagreeing with this very clear statement.
It says YHWH is ONE. Jesus surely knew what He was saying when He said to them: “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30) The Shema was part of daily prayer life before Jesus, known to all Jews especially Jesus. Jesus knew exactly what He was saying when He said: “I and the Father are one”

If Jesus and the Father were not One and the same God, then this is a breaking of The Commandment, which the Shema was. The Shema does not say the Father is alone, it says there is One God (The term father would by definition denote the existence of a son at least). I begin with God, I believe in the God of Israel, and 'then' I consider Jesus: 'Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was’ (John 17:5) Who then is Jesus? is He true, or false?

The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? 35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? (John 10:33-36)

Jesus knew what He was saying, and what He was being accused of, and this is demonstrated by His answer, which is surprising and amazing to say the least. And anyone in that context and culture would immediately know that He was calling Himself a god, or calling Himself God. And any significant ‘son of god’ was well understood as being a god and or a Deity, by Greeks, Romans and Hebrews.

Also, being one with another means we are One. We note that man and women were to be literally ‘one’. As well as we ‘all’ are literally one in Christ, one loaf, and one body. One is surely seen as possibly being an assembly of individuals. And there did not seem to be any objection to the Genesis passages of plurality and conversation within the Elohim.

'Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in every way. The LORD be with you all'