Trinity.

[dizerner]

dizerner and JR,

It's quite incredible to me that one simple statement of fact could cause such a stir.

Is there something in particular on this "king of kings" topic that you are trying to convince me of?

I think our point is that there can only be one literal King of kings, and he wasn't Nebuchadnezzar.

[dizerner]

You seem to think that "trinitarian passages" are so obviously clear and that anyone who sees it differently than you do is being dishonest with the text. Are trinitarians the only ones who study seriously and deal honestly with scripture? How could you possibly know the depth of someone's honesty as they pray to God for his guidance in trying to understand these things?

Well, first off I made two specific points that I believe Scripture clearly indicates, and it wasn't just the generic "Trinitarian" doctrines. You and TheEditor jumped to some conclusions about what I meant. I said Scripture indicates Christ was not just a human, and the Spirit is not just a force. Those two points alone don't equal Trinity doctrine. So when you say:

Do you think the Trinity is clearly stated in scripture or not?

I meant only those two points as things I could not harmonize with Scripture. The Spirit cannot be only a force, and Christ cannot be only a human. Again, those are just two truths that do not entirely equal the Trinity doctrine. Those are the truths I was talking about and standing up for.

2 Cor 3 is comparing the fading glory of the ministry of death (the law) with the surpassing glory of the new covenant and life in the spirit, and the veil is removed when they (the Jews) turn from the law to Christ. I said you misapplied 2 Cor 3:14 because it's not talking about people being blinded because they wrongly interpret something. I don't think it's right for you to say that people are blinded simply because you don't agree with them.

Okay, fair enough. Well I see a fundamental tenet of grace being God in Christ, and that fundamental fact being a major reason the Jews kept to the old covenant and did not accept the work of the Cross. The glory of the new covenant is fundamentally wrapped around the truth that Christ was such a being that he tore the veil and fulfilled the Law, and the Jews clearly saw that removed their entire religion. They had to accept something about the Person and Work of Christ that they were unwilling to accept.

Are there clear teachings that a person could be at odds with? Certainly. Here's an example of what I consider to be a clear statement: "Hear O Israel, YHWH is our God, YHWH is one." I believe that's easy enough for anyone to understand and embrace. I also take it very seriously, especially since Jesus said that it is the foremost commandment. On the other hand, you and millions of others believe that YHWH is three. They way I see it, you are disagreeing with a very clear statement. Does that mean that you are blinded because you interpret that verse differently than I do? What if I said that you aren't taking it seriously or that you aren't being honest with the text?

I'd appreciate your honesty. Perhaps I am. However my system of interpretation dictates that, because I believe the New Testament is actually inspired, statements in the Old are to be interpreted in the light of it. So then do I reject the Old Testament clear statement? No, I don't. I believe the Lord our God is one. But I think the NT teaches that God is three? Yes, I do. So I believe God is three. I believe God is one and I believe God is three, and somehow they both are true simultaneously, even though they seem contradictory. The nature of revelation is that sometimes our natural logic is often superseded. After all I don't see any verse that says "Thou shalt not accept things that seem paradoxical about God."

You accused me of taking a cheap shot because I said something without explaining what I meant. Can you please explain what you mean when you now accuse me of "advocating hardcore skepticism?"

We can become so frustrated that so many of us interpret Scripture differently, that we can come to the conclusion that no one can know the truth. I spoke more out of frustration because every time I take a text, I feel like there is an "anything but" approach to what it means. I guess I can relate to that from something like a Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9, in that I feel, in order to harmonize it, that it can't be saying that a good God forces men to be evil. But I've always acknowledged that the text can powerfully look that way at first glance. But we get verses like "the Word was God" or "before Abraham was, I am," and you would think that would count for something, but it's simply being dismissed. It's not just those two verses... if you expect me to really believe an alternate exposition of the Trinitarian passages, I think you have got to give me a better explanation of why they are there and what they mean than I've seen in this thread.

[TheEditor]

JR,

I discussed htis back in June and I don't recall it ever being addressed. I am pasting my interchange with Phil on this passage:

-------------------------------------------------
PR wrote:

The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? 35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? (John 10:33-36)

Jesus knew what He was saying, and what He was being accused of, and this is demonstrated by His answer, which is surprising and amazing to say the least. And anyone in that context and culture would immediately know that He was calling Himself a god, or calling Himself God. And any significant ‘son of god’ was well understood as being a god and or a Deity, by Greeks, Romans and Hebrews.

My response:

"The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken--do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?"
John 10:34-36

The Jews considered it blasphemy, because they considered Jesus claim to be the Son of God to be tantamount to claiming deity. It is worthy of note that the term "ho theos" is not found in this passage, but that's another discussion. Jesus however, does not say "You are right, I am making myself equal with God the Father." Rather, he offers what appears to be corrective counsel when he quotes from the Psalms. How do you account for that? Why would he equivocate on an issue that, to your lights, the Jews were correct on, namely, that he was claiming to be God in this passage?


I hope you don't think that I am still a WT adherant, so, this point is probably ineffective with me at this juncture. However, one thing I have always pondered; Why is it that God seemed to choose such ineffective language to communicate this all-imprtant truth? Think about it. The words "Father" and "Son" are larded with meaning in every language, not just English. "Father" always denotes originator, progentor, etc. Read throughout the NT with a non-trinitarian perspective, and you can see how people have honestly come to non-trinitarian conclusions. It's not as though the NT goes out of it's way to underline, boldface, and italicize the trinity teaching. It kinda gets lost if you don't keep it in the forefront of your mind and sort of "read past" contradictaory passages, don't you think?

----------------------------------------
End of quote.


I find it odd, JR, as I have discoursed with you in the past abut this, that whenever I use logical conundrums to force a person's intellectual hand, so to say, I am met with "We cannot expect the things of God to be ascertained by finite minds", or something to that effect. Fair enough. And yet, all you ever do is try to use similar logical conundrums when shoring up the trinity doctrine with your repeated use of the passages in Isaiah, for example (which, by the way, I addressed and you ignored).

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

I enjoyed your post and the tone. I had already wrote the following, so I will post it below. I am at lunch but, I will respond to Isaiah, could u note which day or post it was in (There are way to many points made in this thread for either position to answer them all).

I treated him with respect’ (Brenden, Feb 21)

Yes you did. I may not agree with everything we debate, but with that I wholeheartedly agree. We have our diff. on this issue, but I agree you are honest, and responsible I believe most all of us here are. It is difficult to respond to so much, especially with the limited time (we will all be dead soon). I will just leave it at that as far as the past goes.

[dizerner]

‘As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight… He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 “His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Luke 3:4, 16-17)
I don't know who you suppose John is preparing the way for, or who the King of Israel is, and who will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire, and who baptizes you, but I always figured this would be God: God is the King of Israel.

JR you paste a lot of Scripture, which I like to read anyway, but I've really enjoyed thinking about how many functions of God there are that Christ fulfills. Whose winnowing fork could it be, and whose barn?

Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.

Interesting here that the messenger of the covenant (in whom they delight!) is directly equated to "the Lord, whom you seek." Yet the messenger clears the way before the Lord... the messenger who is the Lord. It's just astonishing what foreshadowings are left us in the Tanach.

[dizerner]

...to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours

...for 'whoever will call upon the name of the Lord' will be saved." How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?

Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, He is God."

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (YHWH) shall be delivered: for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the YWHW hath said, and in the remnant whom the YWHW shall call.

And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth... for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God)

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake." And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me

Let them praise the name of the LORD, For His name alone is exalted; His glory is above the earth and heaven.

and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow

"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

..., that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

I will take up the cup of salvation, And call upon the name of the LORD.

Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?

Whose name alone saves?

[jriccitelli]

True, I like bible verses too. Once we realize, or decide, who our Savior is, there is no end to the verses that speak of Him and His salvation. The phrase ‘The Name’ is a predominate feature in the OT, and knowing ‘who’ The Name represented, was a noteworthy hinge of many OT passages related to salvation and deliverance. We are shown that it is God who rescues and delivers, it is Gods name we cry out and call to for deliverance, no Other Name will do: Whose name alone saves?

‘The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance' (Joel 2:31-32)

‘Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Your name; And deliver us and forgive our sins for Your name's sake’ (Psalm 79:9)

"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." 22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet...' (Matt 1:21)
You shall call His name Jesus: Yehoshua or 'Jehovah is salvation' or 'Yahweh is salvation'.

‘I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land. 6 "In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness’ (Jeremiah 23:6)

Moreover, we have not listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, our princes, our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 "Righteousness belongs to You, O Lord, but to us open shame’ (Daniel 9:7)

‘Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, "What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?" 18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Judges 13:18)

‘For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace’ (Isaiah 9:6)

‘There is none like You, O LORD; You are great, and great is Your name in might. 7 Who would not fear You, O King of the nations? Indeed it is Your due! For among all the wise men of the nations And in all their kingdoms, There is none like You’ (Jeremiah 10:6-7)

‘Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth (Philip 2:8-9)

‘Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. 23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength' (Isaiah 45:23). I can say, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength' because at the Name of Jesus every name will bow: because the LORD He is God, and there is no other name or thing that can save but God Alone.

‘For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God’ (Romans 14:12)

"O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 21"And what one nation in the earth is like Your people Israel, whom God went to redeem for Himself as a people, to make You a name by great and terrible things, in driving out nations from before Your people, whom You redeemed out of Egypt? 22 "For Your people Israel You made Your own people forever, and You, O LORD, became their God’ (1 Chronicles 17:21)

"Now therefore, O LORD God, the word that You have spoken concerning Your servant and his house, confirm it forever, and do as You have spoken, 26 that Your name may be magnified forever, by saying, 'The LORD of hosts is God over Israel'; and may the house of Your servant David be established before You. 27 "For You, O LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, have made a revelation to Your servant, saying, 'I will build you a house' (2 Samuel 7:25-26). I love this, the name of His house, that is His Servants house, Jesus, The Temple of His body, is His Body the Church, and on it is a name “the LORD is our righteousness” (see Jer. 33:16)

"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land. 6 "In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.' (Jer. 23:5-6)

'In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth. 16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the LORD is our righteousness’ (Jer. 33:16)

He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come’ (Eph 1:21)

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

‘I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me’ (Hosea 13:4)

‘The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God’ (Jeremiah 51:10)

“Thus says the LORD who made the earth, the LORD who formed it to establish it, the LORD is His name, 3 ‘Call to Me and I will answer you, and I will tell you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’ (Jeremiah 33:2)

Whose name alone saves? Who will answer when you call upon His Name? God, or someone who is not God?

[Jose]

dizerner and JR,

It's quite incredible to me that one simple statement of fact could cause such a stir.

Is there something in particular on this "king of kings" topic that you are trying to convince me of?

I think our point is that there can only be one literal King of kings, and he wasn't Nebuchadnezzar.

Thanks dizerner, I understand that though; it's not something I need to be convinced of. I hope you realize that I never implied that he was, nor that Jesus is King over only some kings but not others. One thing is certain though, there is one who is not under his rule, one whom Jesus is a servant of.

[dizerner]

Who is this who comes from Edom, With dyed garments from Bozrah, This One who is glorious in His apparel, Traveling in the greatness of His strength?-- I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes. For the day of vengeance is in My heart, And the year of My redeemed has come. I looked, but there was no one to help, And I wondered That there was no one to uphold; Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me; And My own fury, it sustained Me.


Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS


Who treads the winepress alone? Whose own arm brings salvation?

[dizerner]

Justice is turned back, And righteousness stands afar off; For truth is fallen in the street, And equity cannot enter. So truth fails, And he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. Then the LORD saw it, and it displeased Him That there was no justice. He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him. For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, And was clad with zeal as a cloak... So shall they fear The name of the LORD from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him. The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," Says the LORD.

Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?... He is despised and rejected by men... and we did not esteem Him... But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him... And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said: Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel.

He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth. Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!" Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else, nor share my praise...

He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.