Trinity.

[Jose]

Hi dizerner,

When I asked you if you thought the trinity is clearly taught in scripture, it was directly tied to two prior comments that you made in which you appear to be contradicting yourself, so I was trying to get some clarification. In your post yesterday #672, you lifted my question out of its context and applied it to something else you said, thereby making the question completely lose its meaning.

Here is a copy of the comments with the question. (If you want to refer back to it, it is at the bottom of post #660.)

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One more thing. On 02/09/15, you said:

"As for Scriptural support, I guess like the Trinity it's a continual inference, never a clearly stated thing."

More recently you said:

"I will defend the Trinity doctrine from Scripture alone, and I will do it all day."

Do you think the Trinity is clearly stated in scripture or not?
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So, as you can see, you said that scripture never clearly teaches the trinity, and on the other hand you also said that you could defend the trinity doctrine from scripture alone. That sounds like a contradiction to me.

In that light, my question to you was and still is: Do you think the trinity is clearly stated in scripture or not?

[Jose]

Justice is turned back, And righteousness stands afar off; For truth is fallen in the street, And equity cannot enter. So truth fails, And he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. Then the LORD saw it, and it displeased Him That there was no justice. He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him. For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, And was clad with zeal as a cloak... So shall they fear The name of the LORD from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him. The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," Says the LORD.

Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?... He is despised and rejected by men... and we did not esteem Him... But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him... And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said: Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel.

He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth. Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!" Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else, nor share my praise...

He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

How does simply pasting a long list of verses help further any understanding in this discussion? Maybe it's time to put this thread to rest.

[jriccitelli]

'For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, And for Jerusalem's sake I will not keep quiet, Until her righteousness goes forth like brightness, And her salvation like a torch that is burning. 2 The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate... For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So your God will rejoice over you. 6 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; All day and all night they will never keep silent. You who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves; 7 The LORD has sworn by His right hand and by His strong arm... (Isaiah 62:1-7)

Is not your arm, your own arm, Jose?


'By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh... God gave us His Word and His Commands, but God did not speak in mysteries and parables so that no one could understand, but so that you would understand, that God keeps himself hidden, yet Christ revealed Him. Yet He was made lower than angels, a servant, do we recognize who He is, He who is invisible, God who keeps himself hidden, but His WORD is not hidden, did He do this for a reason, was it to see if we would keep His Commandments... to see if we do we believe His Word... the revealed things are to us and our children forever, the secret things... "All the commandments that I am commanding you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to give to your forefathers. 2 "You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. 3"He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD... (Deuteronomy)

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only'"

[Paidion]

Dizerner, are Jesus and his Father ONE Individual Person, or TWO? Please say which you think to be the case.

[Jose]

'For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, And for Jerusalem's sake I will not keep quiet, Until her righteousness goes forth like brightness, And her salvation like a torch that is burning. 2 The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate... For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So your God will rejoice over you. 6 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; All day and all night they will never keep silent. You who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves; 7 The LORD has sworn by His right hand and by His strong arm... (Isaiah 62:1-7)

Is not your arm, your own arm, Jose?

Yes, my arm is mine....how that relates to the quote from Isaiah, or what I am to understand from that question is unclear to me.

I noticed that you left out what it was that the LORD swore to do by his strong arm..."I will never again give your grain as food for your enemies; Nor will foreigners drink your new wine for which you have labored."

Does that have something to do with my arm also?

[dizerner]

Dizerner, are Jesus and his Father ONE Individual Person, or TWO? Please say which you think to be the case.

I think they are clearly two Persons just as Scripture references them. They interact relationally and positionally, they display separate wills, minds and emotions, even though they are in perfect harmony and agreement. Needless to say, the Spirit also interacts with the Son and Father in Scripture, both relationally and positionally, and also displays a separate will, mind, and emotion in harmony with the Father and Son. We could say one person is playing two or three different roles or modes, theoretically, although it would break our standard understanding of relationships and identities; but we could argue the Trinity already does that anyway. But the main point for me is that the Scripture specifically distinguishes between and gives all the characteristics of identity to, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, so speculating that they are actually one person is going beyond what Scripture tells us and just theorizing.

If the Scripture makes a point of distinguishing and identifying three distinct personalities with their own set of personal pronouns, and recording their unique actions and interactions with each other, than I think Scripture intends for us to visualize them as distinct entities. Otherwise we get in the kind of speculation that Calvinism gets into, where most of the doctrine is completely unstated behind Scripture, constantly making Scripture say something differently than how you would read the face value (yes, face value is not always correct, so there's a balance), so that every conditional statement, and every "if" statement, and every place recorded that a human being did something, is rewritten by Calvinists as creation merely playing out the exact symphony God decreed and enforced.

A major doctrinal point of the Trinity, as I see it, is one of the Godhead uniting with humankind and becoming in some way part creation. Thus one of the Trinity acts in a purely salvific and redemptory role, giving up the authority that the Father has. And another of the Trinity acts as the enforcer and enacter of God's Word, making the things true that God promises and enacting for us locally what God did in Christ. Thus the Father did not unite with humankind nor did the Father become a creation nor did the Father give up authority or divine attributes, however the Son did do all those things. Thus their three separate experiences, actions, and interactions are completely separate from each other. Christ faced the wrath of the Father. Christ was raised by the power of the Spirit. The Father experienced sorrow at Christ's pain. Christ experienced actual death. The Spirit imbued actual life into Christ. Christ did not experience the pain the Father experienced. Christ did not experience whatever the Holy Spirit experienced, through which Holy Spirit, his sacrifice was said to be made. The Trinity experiences real love for one another, yet each has his own distinct love. The Father loves the Son and so gives the Son the Spirit freely. The Spirit loves the Church and thus instructs and reveals to us the Father and the Son. And on it goes.

[jriccitelli]

Who is this who comes from Edom, With dyed garments from Bozrah...
Who treads the winepress alone? Whose own arm brings salvation? (Dizerner, p.68)

Jose, you copied Dizerner's whole paragraph, where he quoted about 7 times: 'He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him' to which you said:

How does simply pasting a long list of verses help further any understanding in this discussion?

Well if we read the passages we would know that the arm of God, is Gods own arm, it was a mystery prior to the incarnation, but God has revealed His arm and it is whom we also now know as Christ Jesus, and that is 'who' would bring 'salvation for Him; And His own righteousness' Note God brings His own righteousness, because there was no one else.

Just put mighty arm and the Lords arm, the arm of God, into your search, it is a common phrase that refers to Gods salvation and power, and the revealing of both, which we see as the revealing of His arm in Christ Jesus, Who is Gods arm? Gods arm is His own arm.

[Jose]

Jose, you copied Dizerner's whole paragraph, where he quoted about 7 times: 'He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him' to which you said:

How does simply pasting a long list of verses help further any understanding in this discussion?

Hi JR,

Yes, I did, and it was hard to miss the repeated verses. My point was that cutting and pasting verse after verse without comment is not really a great way to make a point.

Alright, so in Isaiah 59 the people are corrupt and the LORD is shocked that there is no one to intervene so he takes matters into his own hands by use of "his own arm." If repeating that over and over is somehow supposed to prove that God's arm is Jesus, then I think a more sound method of exegesis should be sought after.

[TheEditor]

I think Jose's question is valid. How does a list of Messianic prophecies regarding the servant of YHWH (Yahweh, or Jehovah) help us ascertain the trinty teaching in any way, shape or form? Even the most strident Arian would have absolutely no problem reconciling those verses with his Arian views.

Why does Paul seem to go out of his way to make sure we get the "pecking order" as it were, correct with respects God and Christ?

"For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.  But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

It's almost as though Paul is saying, "Say guys, before you get any weird ideas here, God is obviously exempted from this "subjection" business." I know, don't say it, "there is heirachy in the 'godhead'" But this just seems like posturing to me. By the way, that term 'godhead' really has to go--it's outdated and conjures an image that the word doesn't mean.

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

If repeating that over and over is somehow supposed to prove that God's arm is Jesus, then I think a more sound method of exegesis should be sought after' (Jose)

Well your right, the verse does not mention Jesus, that's the point. And if it is not Jesus, then God is our Savior, and there is none else, right? And, well this passage seems to have convinced The Editor though...

How does a list of Messianic prophecies regarding the servant of YHWH (Yahweh, or Jehovah) help us ascertain the trinty teaching in any way, shape or form? (Brenden)

I am glad you believe this verse is speaking of Jesus (Isaiah 59), but this verse does not mention a Messiah, nor a servant, nor an angel, this verse is purely Monotheistic, the passage is only speaking of ‘God’, and no one else:
He put on righteousness like a breastplate,
And a helmet of salvation on His head;
And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing
And wrapped Himself with zeal as a mantle…
God said there was no one else to do it, so He Himself came down. So we agree, God came down Himself.