Trinity.

[dizerner]

The question isn't, it seems to me, whether someone can be god-like, but whether someone actually is what God is. (The Messianic King was Christ, btw.) Judges in the OT could be called elohim or even angels at times, but to be what God actually is, is not to be merely a representative of God (as the judges and angels and kings could represent him).

So was Christ just another representative? Or was Christ actually what God is?

[Jose]

The question isn't, it seems to me, whether someone can be god-like, but whether someone actually is what God is.

The question that comes to my mind is whether or not the NT asks that. Does it ask what is Christ, or who is Christ?

These two questions are reflected in your questions also:

So was Christ just another representative? (i.e. WHO was Christ?)

Or was Christ actually what God is? (i.e. WHAT was Christ?)

Which question, if any, can be found in scripture?

[Homer]

These two questions are reflected in your questions also:

So was Christ just another representative? (i.e. WHO was Christ?)
Or was Christ actually what God is? (i.e. WHAT was Christ?)

Which question, if any, can be found in scripture?

For the first, how about "who do you say that I am?

And for the second we don't need to ask the question when the answer is explicitly given:

"the Word was God", exactly the same thing God is.

[Jose]

These two questions are reflected in your questions also:

So was Christ just another representative? (i.e. WHO was Christ?)
Or was Christ actually what God is? (i.e. WHAT was Christ?)

Which question, if any, can be found in scripture?

For the first, how about "who do you say that I am?

And for the second we don't need to ask the question when the answer is explicitly given:

"the Word was God", exactly the same thing God is.

Thanks Homer,

A few years ago, as a trinitarian, I would have emphatically agreed with you on both points. Today, as an ex trinitarian, I'm not so sure that point two is explicit in John 1:1. EDIT: (that is that Jesus pre existed as a conscience being as the logos in John 1:1)

You've been around here much longer than I have, so you've probably seen plenty of commentary on the meaning of logos. I've seen some of your posts, and I'm with you when it comes to the word being divine and, as you say, coetaneous (I had to look that one up )with God. I also agree that a definite article isn't always used when referring to God almighty. I guess where we might differ is that I don't think the logos, in John 1:1, existed as a conscience being. I don't recall reading how you view it.

[jriccitelli]

Hello Jose, I do recall reading how John viewed the logos: John said the Logos was alive, He was from the beginning, and John saw the Logos with his own eyes: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Logos of Life" (1 John 1:2) 'They are not just idle words for you--they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess" (Deut 32:47) 'and he received living words to pass on to us' (Acts 7:38) "the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." (John 6:63)

The question that comes to my mind is whether or not the NT asks that. Does it ask what is Christ, or who is Christ? (Jose, Mar 5)

There should be no question in your mind, if you hold to Gods Word. After all God has told us who He is and what He is (and what He is not) page after page. God has told us What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life, so what and who Christ is should come to mind. Gods WORD has commanded us to know Him, and Gods WORD tells us what He is, and Gods WORD has revealed HIM, and we are commanded to know Him alone, and no others: 'This is the true God and eternal life. Little children, guard yourselves from idols'

‘… or we have differing definitions for words, or as in this case, assumptions are made without noticing was was actually said or not said. (Jose, Mar 5)

Jose you misquoted me, what I actually said was it ‘seems’. I said that for a reason, you might want to ‘Look at what I actually said’

Jose, Since you seem to be able to know whether it is the Father or the Son spoken of in John, who is John speaking of here below? (me)

From that, you came out on the offensive saying "Since you know who's being talked about in John, tell me, who's being talked about in....1 John 2:3-6, 1 John 2:26-29, 1 John 4:11-16?" (your quote of me? Mar 5)

And offensive? What was your purpose for quoting that piece? Because you are on the offense, right? Why accuse me alone of being on the offensive? Unless you agree with me. And Brenden (March 4) I am well aware of the 1 John 5:20 verse (as well as the rest of the Bible) that doesn’t keep me from the right to give reasons why, like many commentators also note, that Jesus Christ is also THE TRUTH ‘and THE LIFE was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the ETERNAL LIFE, which was with the Father and was MANIFESTED to us’ (1 John 1:2) “I am the way, and THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him” (John 14:6). 1 John was not written from a vacuum, John himself points back to "WHAT you have known from the beginning" "Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been declared to you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. 23 He it is who reduces rulers to nothing, Who makes the judges of the earth meaningless... To whom then will you liken Me That I would be his equal?" says the Holy One. 26 Lift up your eyes on high And see who has created these stars," (Isaiah 40:21-26)

Who has created these stars? Who stretches out the heavens? To whom will you liken Him, and who would be his equal?" Are there any others that are the truth and the Life? Am I the truth and the life? Are angels the truth and the Life? Is there some other truth and life? Are there two truths and two eternal life’s? I hold that Only One is truth, and there is Only One that is true.

[Paidion]

Trinity is one of the most sublime mysteries of our holy religion. In rejecting it because it is incomprehensible, Unitarians betray their inadequate sense of theological fundamentals. In religion we believe only what we do not understand, except in the instance of an intelligible doctrine that contradicts an incomprehensible one. In that case we believe the former as part of the latter. (The Devil's Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce)

[TheEditor]

Hi JR,

This business of the Word being alive, etc. to John may be an interesting discussion to have (especially if we are trying to figure out Jesus' pre-existence), but you are being a little sloppy in your exegesis here to prove it. You have strung together a series of unrelated verses to support a notion that they don't support. It reminds me of the JWs "great crowd" of "other sheep".

"The sayings that I have spoken to YOU are spirit and are life." (John 6:63) have nothing to do with Jesus pre-existence or John's notion of the "word". Where do you come by this idea? In fact, the word "are" in this passage actually is the same word translated "means", so Jesus is saying his words "mean" everlasting life. A few other examples of this usage are:

"However, if YOU had understood what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice,’ YOU would not have condemned the guiltless ones." (Matthew 12:7)

As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “TAKE, eat. This means my body. (Matthew 26:26)

By your reckoning we should believe in trans or con substantiation.

Also, I am not sure what application you are making of Deuteronomy? The "words" in question were the words of the Law. They had a very specific meaning. You are not suggesting that whenever we read the word "word" or "words" in the Bible that it is a reference to Jesus are you?

Regards, Brenden.

[Jose]

Hello Jose, I do recall reading how John viewed the logos: John said the Logos was alive, He was from the beginning, and John saw the Logos with his own eyes: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Logos of Life" (1John 1:2)

JR,

For you to persuade me that the logos was a conscience being in John 1:1 you'll need to prove that John saw and touched the logos before it became manifest in verse 14.

When did John see and touch the logos? Was it before, or after the logos was made flesh?

[jriccitelli]

"What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes...
Jose, I don't know when or where you think the beginning was, but I believe, as well as John, that the beginning was actually in the beginning. 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God SAID, “Let there be light”; and there was light' (Genesis) 'But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER... 10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS' (Hebrews 1).

Jose, I am not sure how or why you worded your question this way. I suppose you don't see as we do that when God SPOKE and all things came into being (... the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him). Scripture has told us Gods WORD brought things into being, Gods WORDS are life, His WORD is living, HIS WORD came down from heaven, HIS WORD was in the beginning, He is the bread that came down, He is the Life and His Words are life, and He is The WORD. I don't know what part specifically you are missing?

This business of the Word being alive, etc. to John may be an interesting discussion to have (especially if we are trying to figure out Jesus' pre-existence), but you are being a little sloppy in your exegesis here to prove it. (Editor)

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

"The sayings that I have spoken to YOU are spirit and are life." (John 6:63) have nothing to do with Jesus pre-existence or John's notion of the "word". Where do you come by this idea? (editor)

From Heaven. Jesus gives the notion that His Words are from Heaven and they are Life. For He says the bread came down from heaven, His Words are the bread of life, and Jesus is the bread of life, and if we eat His words we will have eternal life: “I am the bread of LIFE.. For I have come down from heaven... Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 “I am the bread of life. 49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 “This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die... the WORDS that I have spoken to you are spirit and are LIFE. 64 “But there are some of you who do not believe” (John 6:26-65)

Will you please eternal-ize His WORD, so that you may have eternal life?

Also, I am not sure what application you are making of Deuteronomy? The "words" in question were the words of the Law. They had a very specific meaning. You are not suggesting that whenever we read the word "word" or "words" in the Bible that it is a reference to Jesus are you? (ED)

No, only when it is Gods WORD, and the words of Deuteronomy do have a specific meaning: His WORD says 'They are not just idle words for you--they are your life" Pretty specific, you know this is only one of hundreds of verses that emphasis the specific command to live by these words.

[Jose]

Jose, I don't know when or where you think the beginning was, but I believe, as well as John, that the beginning was actually in the beginning. 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God SAID, “Let there be light”; and there was light' (Genesis)

Hi JR,

I believe John (in 1 John, which is the passage in question) is referring to the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry. John spoke of it a few of times.

1 John 2:7 (NASB) Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.

1 John 2:24 (NASB) As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

1 John 3:11 (NASB) For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;

I believe Luke is also referring to the same thing.

Luke 1:1-4 (NASB) Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.