Trinity.

[jriccitelli]

That's the problem, John is specifically referring to the Old Testament, Luke is not. I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment... let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning... this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another... what they had from the beginning is what Jesus talked of too, Gods WORD, the scriptures, an OLD commandment, where do you think all the commandments came from "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD" (Leviticus 19:18)

[Jose]

Jose, I don't know when or where you think the beginning was, but I believe, as well as John, that the beginning was actually in the beginning. 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God SAID, “Let there be light”; and there was light' (Genesis)

That's the problem, John is specifically referring to the Old Testament, Luke is not. I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment... let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning... this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another... what they had from the beginning is what Jesus talked of too, Gods WORD, the scriptures, an OLD commandment, where do you think all the commandments came from "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD" (Leviticus 19:18)

First you said that John was referring to the creation, then you said that he was referring to the law. Which is it JR, the creation or the law?

[jriccitelli]

We heard of the creation and the beginning from the Law. That's where John heard it from, and from the beginning I have heard of God Creating in the beginning. Where did you first hear of the beginning? From Gods Word, or from somewhere else?

I don't know what to say JR, except that I think I need a therapist.

All we need is Jesus. In Jesus is everything, and in Him everything and all scriptures flow together. If He were not, we could not say: Jesus is Truth, He is Light, He is the Life, He is the Word, He is The Lord, He is The King, He is the One who is coming, He is the Alpha and Omega, He is the glory, He is The Spirit, He is The Name, He is The Power, He is the One whom we believe, He is the One in whom we truest, He is in whom we dwell, and He and The Father are ONE God.

[Jose]

We heard of the creation and the beginning from the Law. That's where John heard it from, and from the beginning I have heard of God Creating in the beginning. Where did you first hear of the beginning? From Gods Word, or from somewhere else?

I don't know what to say JR, except that I think I need a therapist.

[dizerner]

"The sayings that I have spoken to YOU are spirit and are life." (John 6:63) have nothing to do with Jesus pre-existence or John's notion of the "word". Where do you come by this idea? In fact, the word "are" in this passage actually is the same word translated "means", so Jesus is saying his words "mean" everlasting life. A few other examples of this usage are:

"However, if YOU had understood what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice,’ YOU would not have condemned the guiltless ones." (Matthew 12:7)

As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “TAKE, eat. This means my body. (Matthew 26:26)

By your reckoning we should believe in trans or con substantiation.

Just a small clarification:

τὰ ῥήματα ἃ ἐγὼ λελάληκα ὑμῖν πνεῦμά ἐστιν καὶ ζωή ἐστιν. (Joh 6:63 NA28)

The words that I speak to you spirit it is and life it is.

εἰ δὲ ἐγνώκειτε τί ἐστιν· ἔλεος θέλω καὶ οὐ θυσίαν, οὐκ ἂν κατεδικάσατε τοὺς ἀναιτίους. (Mat 12:7 NA28)

If but you knew what it is: mercy I desire and not the sacrifice

τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ σῶμά μου. (Mat 26:26 NA28)

This it is the body of me.

It's an idiomatic use of pronouns, which makes it contextual, because "it is" (ἐστιν) is used in a literal fashion more often than not.

[Homer]

Several posts back I asked a couple questions and was hoping for answers regarding a practical aspect of this subject; perhaps they were overlooked:

From the beginning of this discussion the question for me is why we worship Jesus when He affirmed that God alone was to be worshipped and served. If Jesus is not God, why do we worship Him? Now it has been said that God (The Father) has told us to, that everything has been turned over to Jesus but this is a temporary state. This seems to be the case, but where do we find in scripture any statement or command from The Father that we are now to worship Jesus? But if He (Jesus) is God we need no command and of course we would worship Him.

[Paidion]

From the beginning of this discussion the question for me is why we worship Jesus when He affirmed that God alone was to be worshipped and served. If Jesus is not God, why do we worship Him? Now it has been said that God (The Father) has told us to, that everything has been turned over to Jesus but this is a temporary state. This seems to be the case, but where do we find in scripture any statement or command from The Father that we are now to worship Jesus? But if He (Jesus) is God we need no command and of course we would worship Him.

I don't want to search those many posts, Homer, but my memory tells me that your question WAS answered. But then my 77-year-old memory cannot be greatly trusted.
It is true that Jesus said to Satan, ""Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’" (Matt 4:10). I think worshipping Jesus IS worshipping God the Father. But this fact does not imply that Jesus IS God the Father. Let's look at a human example:

In a kingdom, it is required of all citizens that taxes be paid to King Korbet (and there is only one king of that country). But the king has agents. He sends out tax collectors to receive the taxes. When a citizen pays his taxes to a collector, he is paying those taxes to King Korbet. If he were paying it to a representative of some other kingdom, he would NOT be paying it to King Korbet, but to the King of that other country.

The question at hand is analagous to this. Jesus is the representative of the Father. There is no better representative, for He is Another exactly like the Father, the exact imprint of the Father's essence (Heb 1:3). When one is worshipping the only-begotten Son of God, as God's divine Representative, he is worshipping the Father. If one were worshipping Satan, he would NOT be worshipping the Father. For he does not represent the father in any way.

There is an interesting scriptural passage—Judges 13:21,22

The angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the LORD. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God.” (ESV)

However, this passage doesn't solve the matter, because it can be understood in at least 3 ways.

1. The way, I think you would understand it: The angel of Yahweh was the pre-incarnate Jesus who often appeared to people. To have seen Him is tantamount to seeing God since He was and is God. God is a single Individual, the only divine Individual. In this instance Manoah correctly indentified the Angel of Yawheh as God Himself.

2. The way a unitarian would understand it: In the Septuagint translation, there is no article before "theon". So it doesn't mean "THE God". The NASB, RSV, Rotherham, Darby, a Translation of the Septuagint, and the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) render the word as "god" (lower-case "g"). The BBE (Bible in Basic English) translates it as "a god". Angels are sometimes called "gods" in the OT. So Manoah recognized him as "a god."

3. The way I understand it. I also think the Angel of the Lord was the pre-incarnate Jesus. But recognizing the Representative of God, Manoah recognized God. In John 1:18 in the earliest extant manuscripts p66 and p75, the Son is called "the only-begotten God".

Homer, from scripture, I can't make sense of your view that there is but one divine Individual who expresses Himself in thre ways (or wears three masks—figuratively speaking). For to whom was Jesus praying? Was He talking to Himself? If He and the Father were one and the same Person, what did Jesus mean when He said, "Not my will, but yours be done"? How could He have a will that differed from his own will? Did he have a split personality?

[TheEditor]

Yes, it was on page 49. I just checked before I posted and saw Paidion already mentioned it. The issue was the use of "worship" and proskuneo versus "sacred" or "divine service", latreo. Either way, off the top of my head I can only think of the Psalm "Kiss the son lest God be angry"; but I would see all relevant verses in the NT that talk about God glorifying, installing, exalting, etc. to be at least akin to God commanding worship of His Son.

Regards, Brenden.

[robbyyoung]

Hi Brother Homer,

...why we worship Jesus when He affirmed that God alone was to be worshipped and served.

If you are referring to Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered him, "It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve." He, Yeshua, NEVER crossed the line to be worshipped as The Father. However, scripture clearly allows for worship or reverence to others operating in their GOD given capacities. The point GOD was making is NOT TO take HIS place of sole worship as "THE GOD".

If Jesus is not God, why do we worship Him?

Yeshua IS God, the scriptures are very clear on this. However, He is not "THE GOD". Yeshua make this perfectly clear. Unless one wants to refute Psalm 82, THE GOD established a divine counsel compromised of many Gods. Yeshua is God, Judge, Savior, The Messiah, The Servant, etc... and "THE GOD" says he, Yeshua, is to be honored and worshipped in that capacity.

...where do we find in scripture any statement or command from The Father that we are now to worship Jesus?

Romans 14:9-12 (to bow the knee is to worship). This is a prophecy of Isaiah 45:23 being applied in the 1st Century.
Philippians 2:10

These examples show how "THE GOD" honors The Son as The Judge in which all of creation will yield to. For it's ultimate purpose is TO THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, "THE GOD".

The 1 million dollar question is did "THE GOD" create The Son of God as The First in all creation. If this is so, Yeshua's diety or divinity isn't diminished at all. We are are talking about a spiritual realm of possibilities so advanced that it is impossible to call into question what GOD purposed. All we have is perplexing insights into the realm hidden from our sights to do the best we can with the information without forcing contradictions.

I know Yeshua is God, Judge, Messiah, Lord, and in complete agreement with The Father, his GOD. Therefore, some may say, why create a doctrine which is unnecessary to the gospel message of salvation.

God Bless.

[Paidion]

I find myself in harmony with nearly everything you wrote in the post above, Robby. However, I ran into a snag with your million dollar question:

The 1 million dollar question is did "THE GOD" create The Son of God as The First in all creation.

Clearly Jesus was the first-born of all creation (Col 1:15 ESV), but this does not imply that He was created. In the hymn "Adeste Fideles", He is said to be "begotten not created" in verse 2, the verse which is seldom sung. In the original Nicene Creed, and in many second-century writings, He is affirmed to have been "begotten before all ages". That was a single act. Being begotten is of a different order from being created. An artist begets his children, but he creates a work of art. Jesus was begotten from the Father Himself and was therefore of the same divine essence. "He is the exact imprint of his [God's] essence" (Heb 1:3).

Yes, Jesus was the first-born of all creation. The bottom line is that He was BORN but not created. It was THROUGH the Son, that the Father created all things. The Father was the Creator, and the Son was the means by which the Father created.