Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

In scripture "forever and ever" is often not literal i.e. Jonah was in the belly of the fish forever meant 3 days and nights. Forever usually means for as long as the thing lasts it is not used literally. Also if "forever" meant eternal why would the words "and ever" be added since you can't add to eternal. Also the "forever and ever" is directed at the devil and his helpers , it never says how long unbelievers are in the LOF but at some point (Rev 22.17) after New Jerusalem has come down the "Spirit and the bride" invite whosoever to partake in the water of life.

The term "for ever and ever" is applied the who ever receives the mark of the beast. (Rev. 14)

The term "for ever and ever" is also applied to the "great whore" which I think is also "the great babylon."

IMHO, "The Great Babylon" refers to Satan's humanly pawns he uses on earth.

God says "for ever" and adds "and ever" to emphasize, that there is no way of escaping hell.

"Forever" doesn't mean a "long period of time," because God is not bound by time. We Americans have Greek minds. And our Greek-Thinking minds interpret "forever" to mean "everlasting." And it may the closest interpretation we can get.

STEVE7150: Could you give me a case where someone has escaped from hell? How did he escape?

[Guest]

I just wanted to note that I did not want to come on to this particular forum to debate my stance on Calvinism. But I'm am not ignorant to the fact that my stance on Calvinism would seep through whatever I posted.
And I also assumed that the majority of the posts on this forum would be mostly of an Arminian viewpoint.

I admit that I honestly have not reconciled the Lords revealed will for all to come to repentance with the Lords effective salvation of those he chooses. The closest I can come is to quote Romans 9:19-23. And in regards to the statement made about total depravity. I would agree in one sense that all men do not show the same outward sinful behavior. But that all men are equally sinful in the sense of the heart condition. And that even good deeds done independent from God are sinful. "For whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Even the most moral of men in outward actions is totally depraved in his heart if he rejects and denies the living God who created him. But in reply to non-believers desiring to please God and partake of spiritual things. I would say that perhaps the Lord is drawing them into him. Before I came into a relationship with God I had a desire to know God. But in the next step I would contradict myself by opposing Gods will as was revealed in my conscience.

I completely disagree on the post that stated "Man's freedom of choice is totally out of the picture in both doctrines." I would like to clarify the meaning "freedom of choice." I believe that man has the ability to choose freely but that they are slaves to sin. So an unregenerated man has the ability to freely choose how to sin. But that it takes the Holy Spirit setting us free from the bondage of sin to truly obey God. "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

But again I'd rather not defend my stance on Calvinism. Honestly, the Calvinist/Arminian debate is rather tiresome to me. And for the most part, at least from my perspective, not the most fruitful or edifying of discussions. But I'd be glad to discuss any replies on my statement about humanitarian philosophy and the minimilization of sin and Gods wrath.

[Guest]

...I'd be glad to discuss any replies on my statement about humanitarian philosophy and the minimilization of sin and Gods wrath.

Calvinism affects every facet of your belief. Debating different issues that Calvinits/Arminians debate will ultimately boil down to a debate of Calvinism/Arminianism and the tenets of each.

You assert that men have "Freedom of Choice," although limited to choice which is sinful. I guess I'm confused. The God of Calvinism predestines some things and not others? He predestines some to hell some to heaven some to be good. But not to be bad? Is that the only thing God doesn't predestine? If that is so, does he predestine believers to sin, now that they have been freed by the precious Holy Spirit?

In pure Calvinism, God chooses me to be sinful. If it isn't, you choose to be sinful all by yourself.

[Guest]

It seems there has been a wandering from "Alternative Views of Hell".
There are other threads for discussion of Calvinism.

The biblical teaching of the reconciliation of all to God is, however, most relevant.

I agree with your basic position and most of your arguments, Steve 7150.
I differ on some minor points, for example, I do not believe in universal forgiveness in the sense of people being forgiven before they repent.
When Jesus said on the cross, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do", I think He was calling on the Father to forgive those who were about to kill them. And I think the Father did forgive them, or at least some of them, but not at that time. He forgave them when they were cut to the heart when Peter showed them through a talk that they had put to death the Lord of Glory. Then many repented and were baptized. Forgiveness then followed. God is not going to forgive the unrepentant. They will all have their part in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.
However, I believe all of God's judgments are remedial. All will have to repent sooner or later.

I do not consider myself a "Universalist" because, in most people's minds that appelation applies to those who think God's "love" is so great that He will automatically take everyone to heaven whether they repent or not.
However, I do believe that all people of their own free will, shall ultimately repent and submit to the authority of Christ. "Every knee shall bow".

"He is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe."

I don't think these and the many other verses to which reconciliationists refer have been "wrenched from their context". And I believe the "wise man" who once said that it is not what the bible says that matters, but what it means had it exactly backwards. What it says is what matters.
All of man's hundreds of explanations of what it means don't matter at all.

Though I believe in the reconciliation, I perceive a danger for those who see the truth of it. Man will sometimes take a true teaching and twist it to his destruction. This has been done with this truth. Some have concluded that God will not send anyone to hell, or even that hell does not exist.

Last Sunday, I gave the following talk to a small group of people in a home fellowship, most of whom believe in the reconciliation. From what I heard a few of the teenagers and young people say, I concluded that the following little talk I gave was pertinent to the group. I may have shared some of it already on this forum. I don't remember.

The Danger in Minimizing Gehenna

It is very important that we who believe in the reconciliation of all rational beings to God, do not minimize Gehenna (the Lake of Fire). Whether it's a literal place or "merely" a condition, whether it is literal fire or if “fire” is used in a figurative sense, to be in Gehenna is horrible!

Our Lord Jesus wanted his hearers to understand just how bad it is. He said,

Matthew 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna.

When our Lord spoke these words, He was not talking about a garbage dump near Jerusalem. There is no doubt in my mind that He was speaking of the Lake of Fire that was mentioned in Revelation. For when He said much the same thing in chapter 18, He called it “the fire which goes from age to age.”

Matthew 18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the fire that goes from age to age.

If you don’t want to call the Lake of Fire “hell”, then don’t. A skunk by any other name is just as stinky.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the fiery Gehenna.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the self; rather fear him who can destroy both self and body in Gehenna.

In Revelation 20, John saw a vision of judgment day. Then he said in verse 15:
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

He also stated in verse 10, that the devil, as well as the beast, and the false prophet, will be tested for ages of ages in the Lake of Fire.

The fact that all of God's judgments are meant for correction, does not imply that those judgments are not severe.

And just how long is “ages of ages”? Suppose an age is 1000 years. Then just one age of ages would be a thousand thousand years, that is a million years. John said the devil, beast, and false prophet will be tested there for ages or ages. That could be millions of years. Can we who live 70, 80, or even 100 years even conceive of such a length of time? I wouldn't want to experience The Lake of Fire for 5 minutes ----- let alone for ages of ages. The minimization of Gehenna among early Universalists led to the view that God, being wholly love, would automatically let everyone into heaven. No repentance or life change was necessary, or even belief in the existence of God. I understand this to be the position of the Unitarian-Universalist Association to this day, as well as that of some or many leaders of the United Church of Canada.

Recently, here in our area, a funeral was conducted in a United Church. The deceased was known to have been an evil man. But the minister in the sermon ushered him right into heaven. One of the local Mennonites who attended the funeral challenged the minister on what was said. The minister looked sympathetically at the Mennonite, saying, “Sir, you just don’t understand the love, the grace, and the mercy of God.” This position is a great misunderstanding of the love, grace, and mercy of God. His is not a wishy-washy kind of love that smiles benignly on all people no matter how they behave, like a mother who indulges her children, and thinks it’s cute when they misbehave, and who will defend them vehemently if anyone tries to correct them. Rather our God’s love is a "tough love" ready do whatever it takes bring people under His authority, that they may overcome sin and become righteous people who possess love and concern for others.

Just as you and I, in order to be one of God’s children, had to repent and come under the authority of Christ, so those who will be in Gehenna will have to so the same ---- sooner or later. Perhaps in those ages, God will use the perfected children of God to minister the permanent gospel to those in Gehenna.

[Guest]

STEVE7150: Could you give me a case where someone has escaped from hell? How did he escape?
Not likely since i doubt it exists yet. IMO scripture says that unbelievers are in hades now awaiting judgement. In the OT people who died went to "sheol" which meant the grave and "hades" is the greek translation of sheol or grave. The bottom line is that they are sleeping and will awaken at Christ's second coming for judgement. No one has said people escape from hell , only that God does'nt condemn people for eternity.

You know i don't believe in the total depravity of man but if i wanted to argue in favor of this position this is what i would say. Christ who said "if you have seen Me ,you have seen the Father" said we should "love our neighbor and our enemy." This is not a suggestion it is a COMMAND to everyone who CLAIMS to be "in Christ." Therefore if the possibility of God's judgements not being eternal are presented, the natural reaction of a Christian who "loved his neighbor and enemy" should be joy. Instead the usual reaction is anger and contempt which considering what Christ commanded of us reveals the depravity of man's heart.

[Guest]

And just how long is “ages of ages”? Suppose an age is 1000 years. Then just one age of ages would be a thousand thousand years, that is a million years. John said the devil, beast, and false prophet will be tested there for ages or ages. That could be millions of years. Can we who live 70, 80, or even 100 years even conceive of such a length of time? I wouldn't want to experience The Lake of Fire for 5 minutes ----- let alone for ages of ages. The minimization of Gehenna among early Universalists led to the view that God, being wholly love, would automatically let everyone into heaven. No repentance or life change was necessary, or even belief in the existence of God. I understand this to be the position of the Unitarian-Universalist Association to this day, as well as that of some or many leaders of the United Church of Canada

Thank you for your fine response Paidion , i have to say from my perspective you have a lot of wisdom. You know we tend to think that everyone has had a relatively equal opportunity to know Christ in this life. But really the opportunities are so radically different depending on a myriad of circumstances. I'm 53 and i honestly can state that 5 years ago i did'nt have a clue who He was and is. No exageration, not a clue and i think that is the case of most people throughout the course of human history. These people will end up in the lake of fire and a large number will meet Him for the first time. Only God can determine how repentent they are and what the state of their hearts are but some or many would have embraced Christ if they could have known Him in this life.

[Guest]

Paidion,

You said:

And I believe the "wise man" who once said that it is not what the bible says that matters, but what it means had it exactly backwards. What it says is what matters.
All of man's hundreds of explanations of what it means don't matter at all.

So its exactly backwards? Hmmm, let's try it the other way around: Its not what it means that matters, but what it says. Clever thinking.

The bible is full of tropes. (I'm beginning to think some of the folks posting here wouldn't recognize a trope "if it hit them on the head"). If you don't determine the meaning of the frequent figures of words and figures of speech in the scriptures, you are going to come up with some strange doctrines (which you have).

We are warned of the "lust of the eye". Forget any attempt to determine what this means. Gouge out the eyes and the lust problem is solved; isn't that what it says? "Lust of the eye" is actually an example of a metonymy of the adjunct.

In the same way it should be obvious that "forever and ever" is a hyperbole.

In reference to the atonement we are informed in Hebrews 9:14 that Jesus "offered Himself without blemish to God" and then in v. 28 we read "Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many". Which is it? Unblemished or loaded with sin? We know no sacrifice could be marred in any way, and besides, how does one "bear sins"? A sin is not an object. It ought to be obvious that what was said is not what was meant. In v.28 "sin' is a metomymy of the cause for the effect. Jesus suffered (effect) for our sins (cause). He truly bore what we deserved to bear for our sins, which blows a big hole in your atonement theory.

I noticed after your little talk about going by what is said rather than what is meant you almost immediately quoted several scriptures and then explained what you thought they meant.

[Guest]

This continues to be a most interesting discussion. I had not even heard of universalism till about 9 months ago and now I tend to meditate on it all the time.

First of all I must say that Revelation is written in pictures and symbols, so to take any of its descriptions literally may not be correct. So when it says, "forever and ever" does it mean literally never-ending? And what is the "Lake of Fire?" Does anyone truely know? I am not sure we can know until it happens - we can only try to hamonize what is said in Revelation with the rest of scripture.

Paul makes many statements which support the Univeralist's view. And he never even hints that God intends never-ending torture for the majority of his creation. In fact, I would think that all of us in this forum recoil at the thought of anyone being tortured for even a moment. Are we more noble than God? I think not. Is this just human (flawed) thinking? Perhaps.

Paul does teach of a coming punishment for the disobedient, but why punish if it is not meant to correct? Jude said,...

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

What is the purpose of "convincing" unless it is meant to bring about a change of mind? And why resurrect the unjust only to destroy them again, or worse, subject them to unending torture? These are legitimate questions in my mind.

God created man with a propensity toward sin. He so loved his creation that he provided a remedy - Jesus. Does God have the power to bring all of his creation eventually back to himself? I believe he is all powerful.

Phil 2:9-11
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Todd

[Guest]

I completely disagree on the post that stated "Man's freedom of choice is totally out of the picture in both doctrines."

I encourage everyone here to check out the following article on universalism: http://www.christinyou.net/pages/universalism.html

Calvinistic Universalism

As strangely ironic as it may seem, the deterministic exclusivism of five point Calvinism has been one of the strongest driving forces for inclusivistic universalism. Many thinking people react to the arbitrary limitation of the atonement of Christ to the predestined “elect,” but they often seek to maintain their deterministic view of God. From divine determinative exclusivism, the pendulum swings to the divine determinative inclusivism of universalism. The “L” of “limited atonement” in the Calvinistic TULIP acrostic is mutated into “limitless atonement.” The other petals of the flower remain intact in the deterministic system that diminishes or denies the conditional faith response of man to God’s action in Jesus Christ. Personal responsibility is waived, and this is one of the primary drawing points of universalism. It is a natural propensity of man to seek a religious system wherein he is relieved of personal responsibility.

©2004 by James A. Fowler. All rights reserved

And so, Calvinism is really a form of deterministic universalism.

What are some other thoughts?

[Guest]

...Personal responsibility is waived, and this is one of the primary drawing points of universalism. It is a natural propensity of man to seek a religious system wherein he is relieved of personal responsibility.

I don't believe that the Universalism described by myself, Steve7150, or Paidion at all suggests "a religious system wherein he is relieved of personal responsibility." We have all described a severe punishment for the disobedient.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Todd