Jesus is God

[dwight92070]

Dwight - I would assume that you agree that you don't fully understand God Himself, even given your understanding that there is no Trinity. So how is it somehow considered okay for you to admit that you don't fully understand Him as a non-Trinitarian, but it's considered some kind of a cop-out for those of us who do believe in the Trinity, to say the same thing? Darin has expressed contempt for my saying that we can't fully understand it. In this, you guys are being inconsistent.

Because you don't seem interested in actually engaging these points in an orderly manner

Dwight - I notice you never miss a chance to get a "dig" in. Your statement accuses me of being interested in disorder??? I am simply trying, to the best of my ability, to engage in a debate, and you have to "knock me down" for how I do it????

I will only respond to the one point -- namely, I have never held you in contempt for saying we can't fully understand God.

Dwight - I did not say that you had contempt for me. I said that you expressed contempt for what I said. Contempt was probably the wrong word. You were certainly irked that I concluded that the Trinity cannot be fully understood (or we could say it's a mystery, to use your word). The gist of what you said, as I recall, was that this is what we Trinitarians always fall back on - it's a mystery. But you also fall back on mystery - are you also copping-out?

I have repeatedly stated that mystery is the one certainty in this area,

Dwight - So you also acknowledge that there is mystery in this area. "Your" mystery is not a cop-out, but "mine" is.

but that mystery is best left where scripture leaves it and not as a "sign-off" statement to justify an otherwise irrational or indefensible contrivance
to try and explain a doctrine.

Dwight - Your position and Paidons is every bit as irrational as you think mine is. For example, you can't worship Jesus and, at the same time, say that He is not God. That is totally irrational. To say that you worship one being who is God and another being who is not God is your "indefensible contrivance". Basically, you're admitting that you practice idolatry, violating the 1st commandment.

The trinitarian has escaped the confines of scripture

Dwight - And the non-Trinitarian, once again, accuses us of doing the very thing that they are doing. Scripture confines all of us to worship ONLY God, yet you admit that you also worship another being who is NOT God.

being not content to leave the mysteries as such

Dwight - It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; it is the glory of kings to search out a matter. I believe that's Proverbs. To search out the scriptures about God Himself is actually commendable, not something to criticize.

and then leans on "mystery" to sustain illogical positions in the face of opposition.

Dwight - Actually, I lean heavily on God's word, which gives us much LOGICAL evidence that a Trinity does indeed exist. The opposition here is coming from you and Paidon and sometimes Commonsense. The mystery comes into play when we try to fully understand the Trinity, not that the Trinity exists. Why would I lean on something that I can't fully understand, namely the "inner workings and relationships" within the Trinity? I don't! That would be foolish - to trust in things unknown. I lean on what's revealed to us in the word.

[darinhouston]

Hi Paidion,

Is there a single passage about Jesus being the Son of God before He was conceived in the virgin Mary?

What is your explanation of the OT theophanies and do you find yourself anywhere on the list of definitions from Merriam-Webster?

We have a topic where Christophanies are discussed at some length, I believe.

[Homer]

Hi Darin,

I do not recall any thread about Christophanies. I do believe that subject bears a direct relationship to this "Jesus is God" thread. And the Merriam-Webster definitions of deity and demigod can certainly help us understand one another. I think I know where Paidion stands but am not clear about what you believe or if you are unsure and searching or putting your thoughts to the test.

[dwight92070]

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called

"Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

"There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will accomplish this. Isaiah 9:6-7

This is a clear reference to the Messiah, Jesus, as we can see from verses 1-5, which are quoted again in the New Testament, when Jesus appears on the scene.

So here Isaiah lists some of Jesus' names: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, and Prince of Peace.

Jesus is THE MIGHTY GOD. There is no other God.

Isaiah speaks of the Mighty God again in the next chapter, Isaiah 10:21, where he says that a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God, of whom he has already identified as the Messiah.

Obviously this is not specifically our current topic, but Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus' name is also Eternal Father, an inescapable reference to the Trinity.

Praise Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - God in three persons!

[Paidion]

Jesus is THE MIGHTY GOD. There is no other God.

The Father is called "God" throughout the New Testament.
If Jesus is "THE MIGHTY GOD" and there is no other God, then this implies that Jesus is the Father.

[dwight92070]

I can't argue with you there. Since Jesus is called "Eternal Father", I would say that that is more than just an implication.

[Paidion]

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew. I have never studied Hebrew.
But a translation from Hebrew to Greek (called "The Septuagint") was made in the second century B.C.

Isaiah 9:6 translated from the Septuagint, reads as follows:

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

[commonsense]

on the throne of David and over his kingdom,

Notice it says, He will sit on DAVID'S THRONE and over His kingdom(Israel)
David- who was also declared a Son of God.
'The Lord has said to Me, ' You are my Son, Today I have begotten You."

[dwight92070]

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew. I have never studied Hebrew.
But a translation from Hebrew to Greek (called "The Septuagint") was made in the second century B.C.

Isaiah 9:6 translated from the Septuagint, reads as follows:

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Dwight - Remember Reagan said "Trust, by verify"? Well, I had no reason to doubt your "quote" from the Septuagent, but I decided to verify it. I do not have a copy, so I asked Steve Gregg about your "quote". Steve compared your quote with his copy of the Septuagent and apparently YOU LEFT OUT A SIGNIFICANT PART OF THE VERSE.

Dwight - Looking again at your "quote", right after the words "great counsel", you OMITTED THE FOLLOWING WORDS: "wonderful, counselor, mighty God, potentate, ruler of peace, father of the age to be."

Dwight - Would you mind explaining to me and the other readers of this post, WHY YOU LEFT OUT THOSE WORDS?

[commonsense]

The entire Bible is basically about Israel started with the father Abraham and his faith in ONE God. Israel happens to be called the Son of God. And just as this Son of God is about to come to an end and die, Jesus appears on the scene and happens to be called the Son God. Is this all a coincidence?

Yet now we're supposed to believe that when the New Testament writers refer to Jesus as the Son of God or speak of the Father, suddenly from out of the blue, they're talking about a Trinity of Gods, and Jesus as God Himself. This is a prime example of how doctrines of men enter in.