How Many Saviors Are There?

[Paidion]

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! (2 Peter 10-12 ESV)


"The coming of the day of God". Dwight, does "God" not refer to the Father?
For you, I guess not. Since you believe that Jesus is God, you would think of this as being the coming of Jesus.

[dwight92070]

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! (2 Peter 10-12 ESV)


"The coming of the day of God". Dwight, does "God" not refer to the Father?
For you, I guess not. Since you believe that Jesus is God, you would think of this as being the coming of Jesus.

Dwight - Yes, "God" does refer to the Father and sometimes it refers to Jesus. Did you notice in the above verse that you quoted, that Peter names that day "the day of the Lord" at the beginning and the "day of God" near the end, speaking of the same day. We know that Jesus will appear on that day, but I don't believe the Bible says anywhere that the Father will appear on that day. Another verse about that day is 2 Thessalonians 1:7 says "...when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His might angels in flaming fire." The "appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" is an appearing of Christ, not of the Father. It is the day of the Lord (Jesus) or the day of God.

Dwight - Again, your quoting 2 Peter 3:10-12, I believe, reinforces the fact that Jesus is God. He is the one who will appear, not the Father, and yet Paul calls it "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." The day of God IS the day of Jesus, because He is God. Paul is saying that Jesus is God, and so is Peter.

[Paidion]

Again Dwight, the text does NOT say "The appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ" but rather "The "appearing of the glory of our great God and our Savior, Christ". The word "our" has been omitted in some translations, but it's clearly there in the Greek".
So the Greek text itself does NOT call Christ "our great God and Savior".

[dwight92070]

Paidon,

On page one, you quoted the King James version: "Looking for the blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ." If the "great God" refers to the Father, as you say, then when will the Father appear?

[darinhouston]

Paidon,

On page one, you quoted the King James version: "Looking for the blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ." If the "great God" refers to the Father, as you say, then when will the Father appear?

Now that's a pretty good question I'll have to look into.

[darinhouston]

Paidon,

On page one, you quoted the King James version: "Looking for the blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ." If the "great God" refers to the Father, as you say, then when will the Father appear?

Now that's a pretty good question I'll have to look into.

Well, that didn't take long. I found pretty quickly a pretty decent response that (at least) satisfies me. Basically, Luke 9:26 ("Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.") makes it very clear that it is both the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father that we await (not just God, in which case that could be a reference to Jesus in a Trinitarian context). And also that his glory IS the glory of the Father. Matt 16:27 also says that when Jesus comes it will be his Father's glory in which he comes ("For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory”). So, it seems that when we see Jesus' glory we see that of the Father (just as he had said when he said when you see me you see the Father). In other words, we are waiting for the Father's glory and when it comes it will be in the form of Jesus. This is not surprising since we know also that the Father has shared His glory with Jesus.

Interesting also, there is considerable discussion whether it is the "glory" (as a noun) that will appear or that the appearing will be "glorious" (as an adjective). I don't think that has a compelling distinction in this point one way or the other, but it's interesting.

[dwight92070]

So if Jesus is coming in the glory of His Father, which He is, then how can we reconcile that with Isaiah 42:8, which says, "I am the Lord, that is My name; I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER."?

Also Isaiah 48:11 says, "For My own sake, for My own sake I will act; For how can My name be profaned? AND MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER."

So how can Jesus come in the glory of His Father, if the Father will not give His glory to another?

[Paidion]

Here is a good translation of Titus 2:13

...looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

The glory of the great God will appear, and the glory of our saviour Jesus Christ will appear. Although similar, the two are distinct.

[darinhouston]

So if Jesus is coming in the glory of His Father, which He is, then how can we reconcile that with Isaiah 42:8, which says, "I am the Lord, that is My name; I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER."?

Also Isaiah 48:11 says, "For My own sake, for My own sake I will act; For how can My name be profaned? AND MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER."

So how can Jesus come in the glory of His Father, if the Father will not give His glory to another?

I think it has to be read in context. Clearly this was in the context of "other gods" - and more particularly that no one else would get the glory that belongs to Him - when His son has the same mission and is glorified by him and filled with His Spirit and that glory abounds to his Father (both in fact and by Jesus' own words) I just don't believe the same notion is in view as was considered in Isaiah.

[dwight92070]

Here is a good translation of Titus 2:13

...looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

The glory of the great God will appear, and the glory of our saviour Jesus Christ will appear. Although similar, the two are distinct.

Dwight - Darin quoted Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man is going to come IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with His angels ..." Yet, the Father will not give His glory to another. Let's assume that you are correct, Paidon ,that the glory of the Son is distinct from the glory of the Father. That doesn't change the fact that when Jesus comes, the Father will give Him His (i.e. the Father's) glory.

Dwight - So how is that possible, since the Father gives His glory to no one else?