Are denominations permitted according to scripture?

Post by **_loaves** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:50 pm

Dolphin wrote:
or binitarians, or modalists, or universalists
Paidion, aren't we getting into "cult" staus with these???

I don't consider myself a Binitarian or a Universalist. I know what both of those doctrines are. But, Paidion, could you explain what a "Modalist" is? Call me stupid, but I haven't encountered the term yet.

Post by **_Dolphin** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:14 am

No problem here, Dolphin. You can think of me as one a believer in some of those teachings which "are obviously wrong".

I am really glad I joined this forum.

I have learned quite a bit so far and I can see that I have a lot more to learn in the future.

I suppose this is a good example of what can happen when you go around assuming things? I once worked with a Seventh Day Advenist, and I assumed that I had the "heritic" all figured out. I soon discovered that he was not the "cultist" that I had pinned him to be. Those who are in the circle of people I run with may still consider him to be a "heritic," but I myself consider him to be a member of the Body of Christ, a Christian, or Saint or whatever term you'd prefer.

I may or may not agree with anyone here, but I am looking forward to learning more!

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:04 pm

But, Paidion, could you explain what a "Modalist" is? Call me stupid, but I haven't encountered the term yet.

No, Loaves, I will not call you "stupid". Possibly you are young and inexperienced .... but that is quite a different matter.

In the early years of Christianity, modalism was called "Sabellenianism" after one "Sabellius". It was considered to be heresy by the main church of the day.

A "modalist" is one who believes that the Deity consists of only a single "Person" or divine Individual (as in the Jewish religion). According to modalists, He is "God" or "Yahweh" and expresses Himself in three modes. As ruler in heaven, He is "the Father". As the One being begotten in Mary's womb, He was "the Son", and His presence within His people is "the Holy Spirit".

Some people who think they are Trinitarians are actually modalists. True Trinitarianism is difficult to understand, and in my opinion, intrinsically self-contradictory. But I won't get into that right now.

As a teenager, I supposed that I was a Trinitarian. But now that I understand Trinitarianism better, I think possibly "Tri-theist" would be a better description of the position I held then. I was a member of a Baptist Church. One day, I had a question about a scripture. I forget which one. The pastor's wife said, "Well, there's only one God you know." I understood her to mean "one divine Person". So I asked her how that would fit with the fact that Jesus prayed to the Father, as to another Person. She replied, "Paidion (she used my real name), haven't you ever talked to yourself?" I now see that she wasn't a Trinitarian at all, as she thought she was, but rather a modalist.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:23 pm

The term re Modalism i've heard is that God manifests himself in three persons.
Paidion a couple of questions, the first is that blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is distinct from blaspheming against God in that it's the unforgivable sin. Most people who are'nt trintarians think the Holy Spirit is the influence of God so how would you account for the distinction.

The second is have you ever heard the term "the Royal Family" instead of the trinity or the Godhead with God referring to the family unit with the Father as the head of the family?

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:21 pm

The term re Modalism i've heard is that God manifests himself in three persons.

Where have you heard that definition, Steve7150? Whatever your source, it is incorrect.

From Wikipedia:

In Christianity, Sabellianism (also known as modalism) is the belief that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God, rather than three distinct persons.

From another theological encyclopaedia:

Modalism
The error that there is only one person in the Godhead who manifests himself in three forms or manners: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Just do a google search for "modalism" and you will find all definitions essentially the same, that is, that God is one Person manifesting Himself in three different modes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:34 pm

Just do a google search for "modalism" and you will find all definitions essentially the same, that is, that God is one Person manifesting Himself in three different modes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Sorry i was'nt clear, i meant one God, one person ,three manifestations.
Now Paidion can you explain the distinction made in blaspheming the Holy Spirit as opposed to Father God. Does'nt that give the Holy Spirit personhood, if not why?

Post by **_loaves** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:52 pm

I agree with Steve 7150. This is something I wrote in another post on the trinity:

- - - -

Jesus Christ
Jesus is eternally the Son of God. John 3:16,17; Prov. 30:4, Hebrews 1:2,8. This means He eternally has the same nature as the Father.

Christ wasn’t created but is the Creator. This is clear in Isaiah 44:24 and Colossians 1:16. And since the New Testament portrays Christ as Creator, how can he be created?

Both the Father and Jesus are called “Mighty God” in Isaiah 10:21, 9:6.

Jesus is equal with the Father in His divine nature, John 10:30. Positionally, the Father was “greater” than Jesus. But functionally, just as husband and wife are equal, Jesus and the Father are divinely equal.

Names and attributes of “Jehovah” are applied to Jesus throughout the Bible. For example, Jesus is called God in Titus 2:13. Jesus is called “Eternal” in Isaiah 9:6. And I could go on and on. To ascribe these powers to anyone but God would be blasphemous.

Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is a person because He has all the attributes of a person. The “Mind” in 1 Cor. 2:10, the “emotions” in Eph. 4:30, and the “will” in 1 Cor. 12:11. He does things only a person can do, such as praying and speaking to people.

The Holy Spirit is not only a person but He is also 100% God. He is even called God in Acts 5:3,4. He also has all the attributes of God including Omnipresence in Psalm 139:7; Omniscience in 1 Cor. 2:10; and Omnipotence in Romans 15:19. Only God can have those traits.

The Trinity
Though to word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, the concept is clearly and plainly taught in Matthew 28:19. There is one God (Duet. 6:4), yet there are three persons (2 Cor. 13:14), who are called “God”—“The Father” (1 Peter 1:2), “The Son” John 20:28, and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3,4).

In closing, 2 Corinthians Paul says: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.”

- - - -

However, aren't we getting off topic?

Post by **_Homer** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:48 pm

Paidion,

You said:

2. On the other hand, let's not consider every one professing to be a Christian as a true brother or sister. Let's understand what it means to be a Christian or a disciple of Christ. Only those who have repented and submitted to the authority of Christ (and all that that entails) are our brothers and sisters.

Justin Martyr gave criteria for determining who should be permitted to partake of the bread and wine of communion, that is a test for who is a disciple. It's not an infallible test, but yet it's an effective screen. It went something like this (I'm going by memory ---- not an exact quote):

1. He or she believes that what Christ and His apostles taught is true.
2. He or she has repented and was baptized.
3. He or she is living as Christ enjoined.

Sad to say, but a majority of Christians can not even agree to the minimal criteria you have listed. One very prominent denomination insists that you are saved even if you are not submitted to the authority of Christ; you may live as you please yet are still "saved".

It is prominently proclaimed you must be a believer and be immersed to be baptized. You can not be a member of their church and partake of communion if unbaptized yet you are a saved person, a Christian, without being baptized if you "repeat this prayer after me". Thus we have, on their own admission, saved Christians who are not fit to be a member of their church!

Then others insist that sprinkling is baptism, while others say you shouldn't be baptized at all.

If Christians can not agree on the most basic of doctrines, what hope is there of unity?

It is claimed we are united by our common love for Christ and each other, but can't the Mormons and Bahai say the same?

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:33 pm

Thanks for your last post, Steve 7150. You made some excellent points!

Now I will attempt to answer your question from your post just prior to that:

Now Paidion can you explain the distinction made in blaspheming the Holy Spirit as opposed to Father God. Does'nt that give the Holy Spirit personhood, if not why?

I would first like to strongly affirm that I have never denied the personhood of the Holy Spirit. I clearly stated that the Spirit is the persons of the Father and the Son. As persons, each of us is confined to the body in which we live. But the Father and the Son can extend their Persons anywhere in the universe, especially in the hearts of the faithful.

Perhaps you are suggesting that Jesus' statements about blaspheming the Holy Spirit somehow indicates that the Spirit is a third divine Person other than the Father and the Son. I don't think it does that. In any case, let's examine the passage in context:

Matthew 12
22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw.
23 All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?"
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."
25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
27 "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges.
28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 "Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.
30 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

We see that the Pharisees stated that Jesus cast out demons through Beelzubel rather than through the power of the Spirit of God. To attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to a demon is a very severe blasphemy. For such a blasphemy does not recognize the Spirit's work, and therefore cannot be open to the Spirit's influence in his life ---- indeed is resisting the work of the Spirit. Thus such a person cannot be delivered from sin, and cannot be forgiven. At the time, Jesus was on earth, His Person was also confined to His body, so that the Holy Spirit was the Person of the Father alone. In this passage, Jesus says that one can be forgiven if one speaks a word against the Son, but not against the Spirit. I do not see that He was distinguishing between blasphemy of the Spirit, and blasphemy of the Father.