Jesus is God

[dizerner]

You have sort of put your finger on the most illogical aspect of the Trinity - if they are = then they share all essential attributes. If they do not, then they do not have identity. That is the very definition of identity.

Personhood is the one attribute that they do not share, so in that sense they are not strictly equal, and it should not be claimed they are strictly equal.

They share the attributes of God's Being, but also have their own attributes of Personhood, a soul, a will, a center of awareness, etc.

[darinhouston]

Just to be clear, they can be similar in some respects or share a quality or name or "identify" (in the most general sense) in some sense and yet differ in another sense and so forth, but the notion of "identity" (being equal or the "same thing" as another) is quite intolerant and not flexible at all.

If all we were saying is that in some sense Jesus can be called God or have divine attributes and so forth but not be actually identical to the being of God, then I have no quarrel - but, that way of thinking is what Dwight has railed against in the past.

As an aside, even if you could say that Jesus was "God" in some sense, saying he is "Father" in some sense makes no sense (to me).

[darinhouston]

That is, if God directly reveals a thing which violates the laws of logic, we are to accept it no matter what, as God is not subject to anything else.

Absolutely, though when a translation or interpretation violates the laws of logic, we should strive to reconsider alternative interpretations that do not. Our laws of logic (or at least physical science) deny someone can raise from the dead and deny supernatural yet we believe them. But, the things we have been discussing are not in the same category of revelation. I find most Trinitarians are bound not as much to Scriptural revelations as they are the system that has been built around those (often confusing or ambiguous or mysterious) revelations. It is hard work but honest gracious debate requires it. There is no trouble leaving it as something unknown or unknowable or something not worth investigating fully unless we then hold to it as dogma and declare those who disagree as dishonest or not adherents to the Faith and that sort of thing. If someone says humbly "I don't know - you could be right but that's not how I have been taught and I'm comfortable in my position on it as something not that important," that's find. But, that's not what most non-Trinitarians face in the church.

[dwight92070]

Jesus reveals to us that He is God, because ONLY God can raise the dead.

Elijah prayed that the widow's son would be raised from the dead. God answered him and raised the boy. 1 Kings 17:21

Elisha prayed that another widow's son would be raised from death. God answered that prayer and raised him from the dead. 2 Kings 4:33

Peter prayed that Dorcas would be raised from the dead. God answered that prayer and raised her from the dead. Acts 9:40

Jesus DIDN'T NEED TO PRAY FOR LAZARUS TO BE RAISED. He commanded Lazarus to come out of the cave, even though he was dead. By the way, how could Lazarus come out of the cave, since He was wrapped in linen or other material? Obviously, Jesus performed ANOTHER miracle that allowed Lazarus to come out of the cave.

Some say that Jesus prayed for Lazarus to be raised because He said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me ... " Since He had just told Martha that He WAS the RESURRECTION and the LIFE, we know that He didn't need to ask His Father to do this. Being God in the flesh, He was more than able to raise Lazarus without asking His Father to do it. In fact , He said that He only even raised His eyes and spoke to the Father at that point, so that the people would believe that the Father sent Him. NOT because He needed the Father's help in any way.

Jesus did not pray for the widow's son outside of Nain, to be raised from the dead. He simply commanded the boy to get up. Luke 7:14

Jesus did not pray for Jairus' daughter to be raised from the dead. He also commanded her to get up.

Only God can raise the dead. We know Jesus IS God because He raised the dead without even asking the Father to do it. He said, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never did."

No man who is NOT God can make statements like that, and then back it up by raising people from the dead, without even praying.

[dwight92070]

By the way, is that's not enough evidence that Jesus is God, He ALSO RAISED HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD!!! John 2:19 - "Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' "

When we see such indisputable evidence, it's no wonder that organizations who deny that Jesus is God are called cults.

[dizerner]

For by Him all things were created
that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for Him.
And He is before all things,
and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:16-17 NKJ)

There's literally no way around that as an attribute of God alone.

[darinhouston]

For by Him all things were created
that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for Him.
And He is before all things,
and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:16-17 NKJ)

There's literally no way around that as an attribute of God alone.

https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/C ... hapter1/16

[dwight92070]

Darin,
"will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?"

It doesn't matter what scriptural evidence is produced, you will always try to explain it away. This is typical for a cult.

Repent and leave that evil "organization".

[darinhouston]

Darin,
"will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?"

It doesn't matter what scriptural evidence is produced, you will always try to explain it away. This is typical for a cult.

Repent and leave that evil "organization".

To which organization do you refer? Did we mention this was a discussion forum where we answer each other's objections and explain our positions to the fullest opportunity?

If you disagree with any of the explanations offered, feel free to explain why you disagree. I will be better for it if you convince me of an error. That is the way. The point is there are good explanations to most of your objections - you may choose to disagree with them - that is fine - but if you aren't interested in that, this is not the place for you. My guess is that much of the response would be new to you and something a seeker would want to dig into. If there's something incorrect in the information provided, please let me know.

[dwight92070]

Darin,
"will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?"

It doesn't matter what scriptural evidence is produced, you will always try to explain it away. This is typical for a cult.

Repent and leave that evil "organization".

To which organization do you refer? Did we mention this was a discussion forum where we answer each other's objections and explain our positions to the fullest opportunity?

Any organization or church that denies that Jesus is God - but then you already knew what I was referring to.

If you disagree with any of the explanations offered, feel free to explain why you disagree. I will be better for it if you convince me of an error. That is the way. The point is there are good explanations to most of your objections - you may choose to disagree with them - that is fine - but if you aren't interested in that, this is not the place for you. My guess is that much of the response would be new to you and something a seeker would want to dig into. If there's something incorrect in the information provided, please let me know.

I have disagreed and explained why I disagreed countless times, ALWAYS USING scripture to back up my opinions. On the contrary, you are more fond of quoting so-and-so or viewing such-and-such and explaining why my explanation is nonsense and can't be correct, using your superior intellect, knowledge of Greek, and vast experience. On a rare occasion, you might even quote another scripture.

The point is that in EVERY SCRIPTURE THAT I BRING UP that even hints at the Deity of Jesus - and there are MANY!- you ALWAYS have a "good explanation", telling us that that scripture really doesn't mean what it says, or that this verse is better translated this way, so that you can arrive at your goal: Jesus is not God.

If there is information that is incorrect in what you provide, please let you know?

I always do.

I can understand you challenging SOME passages, in what it appears to be saying - but EVERY SINGLE passage that even implies that Jesus is God - you're all over it. I know it is true that SOME verses may be translated, but NOT in every place where it is obvious that Jesus is God.

"if (I'm not) interested in that, this is not the place for you."?? I've been on this forum since 2011 and have always been interested in defending the Deity of Jesus against any and all - but now, maybe, this is not the place for me??? Maybe this is no longer the place for YOU, especially since you're probably running out of "new" responses. There aren't too many "new" responses that I haven't already heard, coming from your side. But I try to be a good sport about it, and respond again anyway.