Response to Steve Gregg's article-Is Tithing For Christians?

[Guest]

The same law that commands the bringing of the tithe to the temple also requires the bringing of one's firstborn son to Jerusalem and killing a lamb (or two pigeons, if you are poor) in a dedication ceremony. I suppose the failure to do this, and the failure to bring the tithe, would equally constitute robbing God.

[Guest]

I have no doubt that God approves of a heart towards Him. I have personally experienced many blessings in my life and they seem to come on a regular basis, although I never expect them. Likewise when I am less in touch with God I experience the distance emotionally and feel less of His presence. I can't say that God has departed from me but that I have left Him in maybe even a small way.

The blessings I receive are evidently not related to a tithe because I do not tithe. However What I do do is live up to my gift of mercy which at times has left me at the used end, speaking in worldly terms but truly blessed in the spiritual end.

What I am trying to say is it does not matter what you do to please God only that you strive to please Him and do it in all honesty and within the boundries of the measure of faith He has given you.

One more thing. I have received more blessings from spontanaity then from any planned action. I believe this shows the true heart of a person and it is what God expects.

[Guest]

The same law that commands the bringing of the tithe to the temple also requires the bringing of one's firstborn son to Jerusalem and killing a lamb (or two pigeons, if you are poor) in a dedication ceremony. I suppose the failure to do this, and the failure to bring the tithe, would equally constitute robbing God.

This was something prior to the law.
You can deny that all you want, but Abraham paid tithes many years before there ever was a law.
If you are teaching that we should not pay tithes you are teaching a robbing of God, and I would strongly suggest no one listen to your teaching on the subject.
And another thing - some say that paying the tithe to the Church house is not at all like giving to God....That's a bunch of baloney!
God's main concern and what He works through is His Church. Funding it in the way he prescribed is exactly what we should do.
Every dime of tithe I've given I've given to God in the Church I attend!

Anyone that's reading this please do not listen to Steve Gregg's erroneous teaching on giving!!!

[Guest]

And everyone should stand and salute AARONDISNEY for his infalible wisdom.

Come on man, listen to yourself. You are getting worked up because someone does not agree with you. If you feel in your heart that you should tithe because you think this is a command of God to His children under grace then you better be true to yourself but it may not be gospel to others. Think about that.

[Guest]

And everyone should stand and salute AARONDISNEY for his infalible wisdom.

Come on man, listen to yourself. You are getting worked up because someone does not agree with you. If you feel in your heart that you should tithe because you think this is a command of God to His children under grace then you better be true to yourself but it may not be gospel to others. Think about that.

The Word of God states this is a way of giving - we don't know the way to do it apart from God's word, so he lays it out for us.
Steve Gregg says ignore that, so yes I have issues with his teaching on the subject.
In my understanding He is contradicting God's guidlines.
I have very little wisdom on many subjects - that I will admit, but I don't dare try to convince people to rob God as Mr. Gregg does.

[Guest]

I think for the most part we are all intellegent enough to know where Steve Gregg is coming from. He never once says we are to accept his teachings but gives us the view he understands best to be the truth of matters under discussion.

Steve said this in an earlier post:

Until one can find a command given to Christians to give a tithe to somebody or other, we have no more reason to continue the practice than to continue animal sacrifices.

Now what, AARONDISNEY do you find objectionable about that statement and where do you find Steve saying that it is an abomination to pay a tithe?

To me the big question is who gets the tithe? In other words, how does one know that the tithe should go to a local church here or across the street. Isn't this the big issue we Christians face with what Church is the right Church? Doesn't the NT teach that we are all to be one in Christ? So you tell me. Are you tithing where God wants you to or are you just feeling good about it?

[Guest]

I advocate the surrender of 100% of one's assets to God as a non-negotiable condition for Christian discipleship (Luke 14:33). I am not sure how that ends up robbing God.

Aarondisney wrote: "You can deny that all you want, but Abraham paid tithes many years before there ever was a law."

If this was addressed to me (as it seems to have been), I am not sure what it means. If you read my posts, I have not attempted to deny that Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedek. Is this what you think I have denied? Or is it that I denied that there is any evidence of Abraham doing the same thing twice or more times? Of course I deny this, since it is a simple statement of the biblical data. In my posts, there has been nothing added or subtracted from what the Bible says about this.

[Guest]

AARONDISNEY,

Your understanding is, in fact, incomplete. As you know, Malachi 3 indicates a time when messiah will come to his temple. Once there, 3:3 states "He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver;he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord..."

And consider 3:10--"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse..."

You weary the Lord with your words.

"How have I wearied him? Haven't I given 10%?"

By saying, "Funding it in the way he prescribed is exactly what we should do."

From other discussions, I believe you consider Jesus to be the messiah. Then you should know that Jesus came and now sits refining the Levites in his temple. And what was his example on this subject?

Luke 21:1-4 As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. "I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth;but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."

So, wouldn't you agree that the prescribed level of funding is 100%--all?

livingink

[Guest]

I will make a couple observations. First, in regard to the sacrifices and tithes given before the law it is sometimes suggested that these practices were learned from other people and not commanded or revealed by God; there is no mention of how or where they originated. It would seem to me more likely these practices were inspired or revealed by God and this fact omitted by Moses because at the time Moses wrote about Abraham and Jacob the practices were established by the Law and the people knew full well God ordained them. To them, Moses would have been stating the obvious. I realize I am speculating here.

In regard to giving to the "local church", aren't we to give support to those who teach us? It would seem we should support those who labor "to feed the flock". This does not mean I disagree with having unpaid teachers and preachers, but if you attend a church with a paid preacher, it would seem the right thing to do to help with his support, or go elsewhere. It might be argued that the "local church" is not biblical, but the same argument applies to "parachurch" organizations as well. Where do we read of them?

I have for a considerable time been uncomfortable with the idea of giving to whatever people (needy, teachers, parachurch organizations, etc.) without giving to a local body of believers who collectively put the money to use to use for God's kingdom. We find very early in the Book of Acts that money was contributed, pooled together, to help the poor. When the task was taking time away from preaching the gospel, men, filled with the Spirit, were chosen and assigned the task, as the first deacons. Were these men not the "church treasurers"?

Then Paul instructs churches in collective giving for the purpose of helping the poor in Jerusalem.

Later we find instructions regarding deacons. I believe we must conclude they were still involved in distributing the collection by looking after the needs of the poor, and perhaps sending money to missionarys. Paul mentions keeping a list of those who should be helped; It would be logical for the deacons to have done this. I doubt that their purpose was to hand out bulletins on Sunday morning and see that the lawn got mowed.

I have seen money given, designated for a specific purpose, that might not seem to be the best purpose. When the giver has total control of how the gift is utilized, have they truly given to God or just bought what they want?

I realize this is not biblical, but when I worked in management for a large corporation, we regularly received training. I recall one seminar where it was conclusively shown by our participation in joint problem solving vs. individual that groups invariably solved complex problems more effectively than individuals alone. In the bible we find joint problem solving practiced by the Apostles (the Jerusalem council, for example). Isn't it reasonable to think that a group of Christians could collectively give and make the best decisions as stewards rather than an individual?

I must say that I in no way mean to say or even imply that we should not individually help poor people or The Narrow Path of which I am a regular supporter.

[Guest]

Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
(KJV)

You want to say that we won't be robbing God if we fail to pay tithes, that's fine, that's your opinion. But the Word of God says we are robbing God if we fail to give Him the first tenth of all that He blesses us with.
I plan to continue to do so.

Malachi was written to the priests of the Levitical system. The people were robbing God because they were not paying tithes to the Levites. The law dictated where the tithes go. We are no longer under the law, nor are we under the curse of the law mentioned in Malachi:

Mal 3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty.

What is the curse and what is the blessing?

Deut 28:1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:
3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.

4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks...

12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. 13 The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. 14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.


That's some of the blessing for obeying the Law.

Now for the curses:

Deut 28:15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.

18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.


In Malachi, God is restating the blessings and curses of the Law.

Paul states that we are no longer under the mosaic law that contained these blessings and curses.


Another point that can be made is the spiritual antitype of the Malachi 3 passage. One point to note is that there is one storehouse that the tithes are brought to, the temple.

There was only one true temple. In Christ, there is only one true temple, the Church. There aren't divisions of the body. There is one temple, not many temples. So to bring all the tithes to the storehouse in the Christian age, you would have to bring your tithes to the one temple. Paul says that we (plural) are the temple (singular) of God. So the correct view would seem to be to bring the whole tithe to the people of God, who are the temple. Nowhere are we commanded to bring tithes to a building, nor are we to segregate into denominations, keeping the "Whole tithe" to ourselves, withholding it from other "denominations". Paul took all the money gathered from Gentile churches and gave that money to the Jerusalem church. Something not done today. Today the "whole tithe" is kept within the walls of that denomination for the most part.

To give a practical example, there are many church buildings that were totally destroyed by hurricane katrina. Yet there are other churches across the US that were untouched. These untouched churches, instead of giving thier "tithes" to those who have lost homes and thier church building keep "thier" money "in house" and build larger buildings for "themselves" instead of remembering the poor, who not only have no church building at all, but have no homes either. I, for the life of me, can't understand this mentality. There is one temple, it includes all believers, not just the ones who grace the doors of "our" church.