Response to Steve Gregg's article-Is Tithing For Christians?

[_AARONDISNEY]

My theory was way off. Thought you were younger.

Did Spongebob throw you off ?

I may have a wrong assumption, but I would assume you are trying to attack my lack of learning. I do study the Word of God frequently. However, I understand that the Bible says the Spirit will lead us into all truth. We should remember that and not make it "our ability to analyze the BIble"leading us into all truth. The Bible plus no Spiritual guidance accompanying our study time = disaster. I am not trying to imply that you don't inquire of the Lord as to these matters, Steve. But craftily trying to belittle me for not having the depth of knowledge you have is a little insulting. Forgive me if this is a false assumption please.

I don't just follow a theory because some sense can be made of it through scripture.
For example......A-mil, Pre-mil and Post mil are all theories that can be made to be logical with enough working of the scriptures. I believe this is what you've done with tithing. Your theory may make sense but so does my theory of it. That's when I turn to the Lord and ask His wisdom and I believe you are dead wrong and I hope you change your mind before you have to face the Lord with it.

I believe it will be some of the stubble that you've helped build the kingdom of God with that will be burned.

[Guest]

I believe this is what you've done with tithing. Your theory may make sense but so does my theory of it.

Sounds like you've identified this as a cloudy secondary issue where 2 disciples of Christ can disagree in good conscience and still consider each other brothers.

That's when I turn to the Lord and ask His wisdom and I believe you are dead wrong and I hope you change your mind before you have to face the Lord with it.

I believe it will be some of the stubble that you've helped build the kingdom of God with that will be burned.

Whoops! Sounds like you consider it a matter of essential Christian doctrine. Which is it? I would advise caution when attempting to assess how Steve's life and teaching will be judged. That is Jesus' privilege alone. If it is a secondary issue, approach with humility because you may be wrong.


As I've been following this thread, many of Aaron's responses seemed to be knee jerk reactions to the faulty assumption that replacing the tithe with the stewardship principle will cause believers not to give.
However, it seems obvious to me that stewardship, as taught by Christ, tends toward more abundant giving along with giving from a willing, generous heart rather than compulsion.

2 Corinthians 9:6-8
6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.

[_AARONDISNEY]

shoel,
I know that there are Christians out there that agree with Steve's assumptions. However, I think it is important not to teach that it's okay to rob God. I understand that Steve may not mean it that way. He says that everything belongs to God and I would agree with that. But God has told His people that if we fail to bring tithes and offerings we are robbing Him. I don't read where He said that was no longer so. It was so for Abraham before there was a nation of Israel and I believe it to be so now.

I was hoping Steve would respond to my question about whether or not it had nothing to do with Christians when Jesus made a statement addressed to non-Christians and instead I got a masked insult from Steve. What a guy!

I am afraid that Steve is the type of teacher that likes to find strange stances on subjects from the BIble and then seeks ways to substanciate them. Anyone can do that. Many can find a way to prove Biblically that water baptism is necessary for salvation, doesn't make it so, just makes it logical when you analyze the Bible. But it can be proven from the Bible that it is not necessary. Many from the OSAS opinion have ways they can make the language and sentence structure of the verses support their claims, which are also false.

I am only saying that just because Steve Gregg can work the scriptures to refute the tithe doesn't mean he's right. I would suggest to anyone reading this that they should look more carefully at the other side of this issue, and pray for the Lord's guidance in this matter, and not just take Mr. Gregg's word for it.

[Guest]

AARONDISNEY,

You must think me to be a numb robot, only programed to think what is programed into me. You seem to have issues and I dare say that they have nothing to do with the teachings of Steve Gregg. I would bet that 99% of us here do not agree 100% with what Steve teaches but we don't see it necessary to go warning people as if we can't figure out things for ourselves.

You are a young man and therefore lacking in the wisdom that comes with age. I suggest you just continue to work out your own salvation and grow in wisdom and faith and then maybe you will be able to speak to these issues with more clarity.

[_AARONDISNEY]

What kind of clarity are you talking about.........

Mocking people for being young?

Yeah - I really hope I reach that stature in my Christian life

I asked a question and Mr. Gregg mocked me and didn't answer it. Instead he wondered if I was a 12 year old or something. It just annoyed me a little that he couldn't answer a question and so instead he turned it over on me. Not real professional at all if you ask me.

[Guest]

Hello Aaron,

I've found this discussion quite interesting, although it does sadden me when discussions devolve into ad hominem attacks. I must confess that I too assumed you were perhaps a teenager. I suppose the combination of the SpongeBob avatar, the word "Disney" and the somewhat immature tone of some of you posts caused me to jump to this conclusion. I do not say this as an attempt to insult you; only to say that I too reached the wrong conclusion (and for that I apologize).

I would like to address two points which you've been making. The first is your continuous use of the phrase "rob God". I assume that your use of this phrase is based on Malachi 3:8-12. If that is the case, I'd like to point something out:

The Israelites of the time period that Malachi was written paid three tithes. The first, which was paid yearly, was to support the Levites (Lev. 27:30, Num. 18:21) since they had no land of their own. Here's an interesting article about this: http://home.earthlink.net/~russkellyphd/id26.html

The second tithe, which was paid yearly, was to pay for the various religious festivals (Deut. 12:4-7, 14:22-27).

The third tithe, which was paid every three years, was for the poor (widows, orphans, aliens, etc. - Deut. 14:28, 26:12).

This averages out to 23.3% per year total.

The question then is, which tithe is Malachi talking about? All you have to do is go up a couple of verses to 3:5 - "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me". This is consistent with the rest of scripture. There are hundreds of verses throughout the Old and New Testaments which express God's concern for the poor and marginalized. In fact, it is one of the most constant themes throughout the Bible.

So let me ask you. Do you rob God? Does your tithe go to the poor? Or does it go to pay for a church building and a pastor's salary? Can you account for how your tithe is spent or do you just drop it in the collection and give it no further thought?

On another point, Abram did indeed give to Melchizedek, the king of Salem, a tenth of the war-spoils he received by defeating Kedorloamer and the other kings of Sodom. This was, and still is, a very common practice in the Middle-East. A local ruler will pay a tribute to an allied ruler in order to maintain a peaceful, cooperative relationship. To equate the tribal leader Abram's one-time tribute given to an ancient regional priest/king to your putting 10% of your income in the plate at church every Sunday is a fantastic leap.

[_AARONDISNEY]

Hello Mort,
First off, yeah - I like Spongebob. My wife thinks I'm dumb for it but oh well . Second, my last name is Disney which is why it says AARONDISNEY - I just run my first and last name together.
Third - my tone may seem immature, but I don't mean it that way. I think that there seems to be a Steve Gregg flock around here. Not everyone. Paidion for example seems to disagree with several things that Steve advocates but it mainly seems that if Steve says something, many on here take it as gospel truth.
I have found that he is very good at analyzing things. I think he has a super sharp mind. But I disagree with him on several points.
I also agree with him on a few things. Such as his stance on Calvinism/Arminianism is identical to my own. I would "Amen" his every word on that subject. But it also seems that he loves to take the minority side of so many issues and finds ways to substantiate them from scripture.
The tithe is stated plainly in scripture. The Lord says we are robbing Him if we fail to give Him the tithe. In the NT the only place that really mentions the tithe is not a renouncement of it but a statement that it should not be left undone.
Now as far as my tone. You are correct. But although Steve's tone was calm and his posts short, they were equally insulting. I would much rather listen to a person that has obviously spent a lot of time with the Lord and seeks the wisdom that is from above than from a man that analyzes 24/7.

I had actually told myself I would not listen to Steve's audio lectures anymore and then I decided to give Hebrews a shot. Not hardly half an hour into it and he was once again talking about how the "Coming of the Lord" is not what 98% Christians think it is but it's what he thinks it is.

I guess I just am tired of hearing his oddball theories on everything.
If the only thing I ever heard from him was his Conditional Security and antiCalvinism teaching I'd have a much higher view of his lectures, but unfortunately I got all twisted up in his other teachings. Praise the Lord I got far away from them!!!

[Guest]

Hello Aaron,

Thanks for the reply. I was hoping, however, that you might engage some of the points I brought up.

I'm curious about a couple of statements you just made:

But it also seems that he loves to take the minority side of so many issues and finds ways to substantiate them from scripture.

I have to ask, not in order to defend Steve (he's quite capable of defending himself), but to clarify where you stand on this: If something can be clearly substantiated from scripture, then should we not accept it? Isn't this what Martin Luther did when he professed "sola scriptura" as the basis for doctrine, even though it was contrary what 98% of the church believed at the time?

I would much rather listen to a person that has obviously spent a lot of time with the Lord and seeks the wisdom that is from above than from a man that analyzes 24/7.

You seem to be creating a false dichotomy between using one's God-given
(and submitted to God) intellect vs. spending "time with the Lord" "seeking the wisdom that is from above". If one devotes oneself to diligently (and prayerfully) studying God's word, is that a bad thing? What if I think I hear something from the Holy Spirit that is contradictory to scripture? Worse, what if I don't know scripture well enough to know whether what I think I hear is Biblical or not? Should I eschew scripture in favor of direct revelation? Are spending time with the Lord and using the intellect mutually exclusive?

[_AARONDISNEY]

Hi Mort,
Of course it is good to spend much time in the scriptures to be able to discern the spirits to see if they are of God. And of course I don't know what kind of time Steve spends in prayer.
Just to clarify, what I mean is that there are many different things that people can contort scripture to say. They can even lay out a great case for many different ideas using nothing but scripture and still be wrong about it.
I talk to people on another Bible forum frequently about the doctrine of eternal security. I will lay out why I believe the case is plainly made that it is possible for a person to believe on Christ and then to no longer follow Him and thus lose their salvation. The people that advocate unconditional security have an answer for everything. Sometimes it's completely ridiculous. Sometimes the answer gives way to the possibility of thier view being true. However, just because they can defend it well does not make it so and neither does this idea of the tithe being done away with. That's simply the point I am trying to make.

[Guest]

What kind of clarity are you talking about.........

Mocking people for being young?

Yeah - I really hope I reach that stature in my Christian life

I asked a question and Mr. Gregg mocked me and didn't answer it. Instead he wondered if I was a 12 year old or something. It just annoyed me a little that he couldn't answer a question and so instead he turned it over on me. Not real professional at all if you ask me.

First I would like to say that the assumption Steve Gregg made was wrong and inappropriate. I cringed when I read it.

Second, while what Steve did was wrong, are you not able to go back an re-read your own posts and see where you have continually mocked Steve:

"I would much rather listen to a person that has obviously spent a lot of time with the Lord and seeks the wisdom that is from above than from a man that analyzes 24/7."

While Steve assumed you were young, you assume he spends little time with the lord and does not seek wisdom from above.

You are very sensitive to being asked your age, then you attack a man as being unspiritual because he doesn't agree with you?

And you are more mature than Steve for acting like this?

When someone offends you, does that give you a blank check to attack thier charater over and over again? When someone wrongs you, are you suppose to wrong them back?

Now,
I've made several points about tithing and you have not answered a them. You have made assertions: The tithe is clearly taught. But you have not interacted with several points i have made. Instead you keep making the same assertions over and over. When preesed you admit your conviction lies on divine revelation. What if I said I have asked God about this issue and it was made clear to me that tithing in not for Chritians. Now what?

Maybe Paul has already answered this:
"Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

God can tell you it's right for you because you would be convicted by your conscience if you didn't tithe. But God may tell someone else it's not required because they are not convicted by their conscience if they don't tithe.

Finally, someone who spends time in the word is not seeking anything other than God's will. Who do you think inspired the bible? Man or the Holy Spirit? By seeking the word of God in the bible you are seeking that which is from above.