tartanarmy wrote:
Judas is the son of perdition, prophesied to betray the Lord. As plainly taught in the very text you quote. He was not a true follower. He was not of Christ, and being drawn into the company of the disciples is neither here nor there, for he is the ONE EXCEPTION in order for scripture to be fulfilled.
Yes Judas was prophesied to betray the Lord. You still haven't explained how Judas remained a follower even after others left him. We know how he become one of the twelve, he was chosen by Christ. You said he was not a "true" follower. But I still don't understand your position. If no one comes unless the Father draws him (Which I believe is all men since the time Jesus was crucified as per John 12:32) then how is it that Judas was able to remain so long. Are you admitting that some people can come to follow Christ on their own ability? If not then how was Judas able?
Of course people come on their own ability! But, not all remain do they?
You said, (Which I believe is all men since the time Jesus was crucified as per John 12:32)
How can it be all men, when the text teaches the opposite?
The text teaches “All that the Father gives to me”, how on earth can that be twisted to say all men?
All that are given are raised up on the last day!
Are all men raised up on the last day?
You mentioned that this may be a exception because it was prophesied. Yet Paul makes this prediction:
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith...
Yes, and they shall.
That is why we are told the parable of the soils (Mark 4), and that is why John say’s,
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.
If you have to be regenerated before you can have faith (according to Calvinist), and there will be those who depart from faith then it seems there will be those who are regenerated and then fall away. Would not this, as in the case of Judas also fulfill prophecy?
No one who is regenerated shall fall away. That is what Calvinism teaches, as does scripture.
Judas was not regenerated. Where does scripture say he was?
tartanarmy wrote:
Surely you will not try and use Judas as a way of not accepting the plain reading of John 6 and how God saves His people? see John 17 and John 10:28.
Again, Romans 4 says were are justified by the exercising of faith, not before. Is Paul in contradiction to John? I think not, since John himself penned:
I am not talking about
Justification! I am talking about
regeneration....They are not the same thing.
Joh 20:31 But these have been written in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through your faith in him you may have life.
The belief comes first, then life (regeneration). John and Paul agree. Are we drawn by God? absolutely! Does God act first? Yes! Is an exercising of faith required on our part first? Apparently so.
Faith comes
after regeneration.
Justification comes after faith.
Calvinism teaches we are Justified by Faith. That is a reformed teaching!
We are saved by Grace, through faith!
tartanarmy wrote:
Yes, but those who look are the same group from v37 who are FIRST GIVEN to the Son by the Father.
The same group who are raised up on the last day.
What comes first? Us coming to Christ or us being given to Christ?
My original point was that there was a unique time in history when the Messiah came. Those who were living at that time were either faithful or unfaithful to God. The faithful were Gods' and were given by God to Jesus since Jesus was now ushering in a new era as Lord.
No offence, but it was a
simple question. None of that addresses John 6:37.
Since that time I don't see how God is still giving people to Christ in the way it was done at that time.
Done at that time? Is there more than one way of salvation?
I am struggling to meaningfully interact with you here, in light of the scriptures I have given, and your willingness to overturn its plain meaning.
Once Jesus began His preaching, He was calling the unfaithful to repent because the Kingdom of God was at hand. To become a disciple, you must come to Christ. Was Jesus not talking about those who already belong to God at that time?
Please, read John 6 as if you have never ever studied it (maybe you haven’t). In fact do a study of the whole chapter and get a feel for what is happening there.
Here are a few passages to consider from John 6, but it would be really great if you do a fresh read of the chapter.
John 6
Joh 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, the Sea of Tiberias.
Joh 6:2 And a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His miracles which He did on the sick ones.
Joh 6:6 And He said this to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.
Joh 6:12 And when they were filled, He said to His disciples, Gather up the fragments left over, so that nothing is lost.
Joh 6:14 Then seeing the miracle that Jesus did, those men said, This is truly the Prophet, the One coming into the world.
Joh 6:24 therefore, when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves also entered into the boats and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus.
Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Truly, truly, I say to you, You seek Me not because you saw the miracles, but because you ate the loaves and were filled.
Joh 6:28 Then they said to Him, What shall we do that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them,
This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent.
Joh 6:34 Then they said to him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe.
Joh 6:37
All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me,
that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them,
Do not murmur with one another.
Joh 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:56 He who partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood dwells in Me, and I in him.
Joh 6:60 Then when they had heard, many of His disciples said, This is a hard saying, who can hear it?
Joh 6:63
It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who
did not believe, and who is the one betraying Him.
Joh 6:65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that
no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.
Joh 6:66 From this time
many of His disciples went back into the things behind, and walked no more with Him.
Joh 6:67 Then Jesus said to the Twelve,
Do you also wish to go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him,
Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the Words of eternal life.