Mat 24

[psychohmike]

It is my understanding there is another view that it doesn't appear you have taken into account, at least I don't see where you make reference to Dan 7:13, 14 in the above verses. How do you know the "coming of the Son of man" in the Olivet discourse isn't tied to Dan 7:13,14 when the Son of man is dipicted coming up to the Ancient of Days?

Conquest

Well hello Mr/Mrs/Miss Conquest...Why was it the "SIGN" of His coming that was asked about? Is it because His disciples understood that it would be some kind of physical/earthly outward manifestation of a spiritual reality?

Consider that a sign is representative of something. Were the signs and accompanying wonders following the first pentacost after the resurrection the reality or a "SIGN" pointing to the greater reality? That is the fulfillment of Daniel 7's, "Coming of the Son of Man," TO the Ancient of Days.

Pmike

[Conquest]

It is my understanding there is another view that it doesn't appear you have taken into account, at least I don't see where you make reference to Dan 7:13, 14 in the above verses. How do you know the "coming of the Son of man" in the Olivet discourse isn't tied to Dan 7:13,14 when the Son of man is dipicted coming up to the Ancient of Days?

Conquest

Well hello Mr/Mrs/Miss Conquest...Why was it the "SIGN" of His coming that was asked about? Is it because His disciples understood that it would be some kind of physical/earthly outward manifestation of a spiritual reality?

Consider that a sign is representative of something. Were the signs and accompanying wonders following the first pentacost after the resurrection the reality or a "SIGN" pointing to the greater reality? That is the fulfillment of Daniel 7's, "Coming of the Son of Man," TO the Ancient of Days.

Pmike

Thank you for your thoughts, what "sign" would have been indication Dan 7:13, 14 had been fulfilled?

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

I'm not sure the signs in Acts 2 would have indicated He had been given "dominion", what "sign" might have revealed that fact?

Conquest

[psychohmike]

I'm not sure the signs in Acts 2 would have indicated He had been given "dominion", what "sign" might have revealed that fact?

Conquest

Well...I don't necessarily know that the Bible gives us all the details, but we do have the testimony of Peter. And he interpreted the preceding events that led up to Pentacost and the receiving of the Holy Spirit as evidence that Christ had been exalted to the right hand of God and that He was sitting on His throne.

What more do you need to know? He was(past tense) seated on His throne...At the right hand of God. Is there anything higher than this? I suppose He could kick God the Father off of His throne and sit on it. But would that be any higher? Guess that would be a trinity convo...

Pmike

[Conquest]

I'm not sure the signs in Acts 2 would have indicated He had been given "dominion", what "sign" might have revealed that fact?

Conquest

Well...I don't necessarily know that the Bible gives us all the details, but we do have the testimony of Peter. And he interpreted the preceding events that led up to Pentacost and the receiving of the Holy Spirit as evidence that Christ had been exalted to the right hand of God and that He was sitting on His throne.

What more do you need to know? He was(past tense) seated on His throne...At the right hand of God. Is there anything higher than this? I suppose He could kick God the Father off of His throne and sit on it. But would that be any higher? Guess that would be a trinity convo...

Pmike

My question wasn't worded to well, what I was getting at is demonstrated by the disbelief of the Jews who denied he was seated on the throne. My question was what "sign" would have been indication to them, those who denied who He was that He had been given dominion. Based on how I read the text it doesn't appear many of the Jews accepted Peters claim, what "sign" would have convinced them?

Conquest.

[psychohmike]

My question wasn't worded to well, what I was getting at is demonstrated by the disbelief of the Jews who denied he was seated on the throne. My question was what "sign" would have been indication to them, those who denied who He was that He had been given dominion. Based on how I read the text it doesn't appear many of the Jews accepted Peters claim, what "sign" would have convinced them?

Conquest.

Acts 2:41Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Seems like an awful lot for one day considering a simple message...How many do you think is necessary to meet your quota?

[Conquest]

My question wasn't worded to well, what I was getting at is demonstrated by the disbelief of the Jews who denied he was seated on the throne. My question was what "sign" would have been indication to them, those who denied who He was that He had been given dominion. Based on how I read the text it doesn't appear many of the Jews accepted Peters claim, what "sign" would have convinced them?

Conquest.

Acts 2:41Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Seems like an awful lot for one day considering a simple message...How many do you think is necessary to meet your quota?

That was during Pentecost, right? What was the population of the city and nation during non holiday periods and what did it swell to at Pentecost. 3000 might seem large but if there were 1 million there it isn't much. What "sign" would have been an indication to those that denied Him that He had been given dominion?

Conquest

[psychohmike]

That was during Pentecost, right? What was the population of the city and nation during non holiday periods and what did it swell to at Pentecost. 3000 might seem large but if there were 1 million there it isn't much. What "sign" would have been an indication to those that denied Him that He had been given dominion?

Conquest

Ummmm...I'm thinking, this dude Jesus of Nazareth, that they saw get crucified and die coming back to life a few days later would be a nifty sign. The fact of the matter is, whatever happened in Jerusalem recorded in Acts 2 was sign enough along with Peters testimony that some 3000 people were added to their numbers that day. However, if you are suggesting that the resurrection and the receiving of the Spirit on the following pentacost wasn't enough of a sign, then you should be able to justify it.

So what am I missing here?

What is your angle?

Are you trying to suggest that Jesus wasn't given dominion at that time?

[Conquest]

That was during Pentecost, right? What was the population of the city and nation during non holiday periods and what did it swell to at Pentecost. 3000 might seem large but if there were 1 million there it isn't much. What "sign" would have been an indication to those that denied Him that He had been given dominion?

Conquest

Ummmm...I'm thinking, this dude Jesus of Nazareth, that they saw get crucified and die coming back to life a few days later would be a nifty sign. The fact of the matter is, whatever happened in Jerusalem recorded in Acts 2 was sign enough along with Peters testimony that some 3000 people were added to their numbers that day. However, if you are suggesting that the resurrection and the receiving of the Spirit on the following pentacost wasn't enough of a sign, then you should be able to justify it.

So what am I missing here?

What is your angle?

Are you trying to suggest that Jesus wasn't given dominion at that time?

No angle, you make a very valid point, it is hard to comprehend how anyone after having it explained to them that Jesus Christ did indeed arise from the grave would not have then been considered the Messiah, yet as history records the vast majority of Jews who lived then didn't accept Him as their Messiah. I seem to recall in the Gospel accounts the religious leaders of the day took steps to hide the evidence and I think there is something about Him having only been seen by those who were allowed to see Him, so maybe that has something to do with the unexplainable. Even Saul who presecuted Christians wouldn't accept what had happened until he met him face to face. So what my question relates to is, those guys like Saul who intentionally went out of their way to hide the evidence and deny who Jesus Christ really was, short of a personal appearance, what "sign" would have given them an indication that in fact He held dominion and was ruling?

Conquest

[psychohmike]

So what my question relates to is, those guys like Saul who intentionally went out of their way to hide the evidence and deny who Jesus Christ really was, short of a personal appearance, what "sign" would have given them an indication that in fact He held dominion and was ruling?

Conquest

Acts 1:5-12 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”


They were "amazed and marveled," and "amazed and perplexed."

Clearly the events of that Pentacost impressed in some way, these devout men from every nation under heaven .

They were impressed enough that it made them stop and listen to what Peter had to say. What Peter said along with what they had seen was enough to make these people realize what they had done and who Jesus was.

If you think that this wasn't enough of a sign, feel free to let us know what would have been.

Exactly what kind of sign would you think necessary?

[Conquest]

So what my question relates to is, those guys like Saul who intentionally went out of their way to hide the evidence and deny who Jesus Christ really was, short of a personal appearance, what "sign" would have given them an indication that in fact He held dominion and was ruling?

Conquest

Acts 1:5-12 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”


They were "amazed and marveled," and "amazed and perplexed."

Clearly the events of that Pentacost impressed in some way, these devout men from every nation under heaven .

They were impressed enough that it made them stop and listen to what Peter had to say. What Peter said along with what they had seen was enough to make these people realize what they had done and who Jesus was.

If you think that this wasn't enough of a sign, feel free to let us know what would have been.

Exactly what kind of sign would you think necessary?

I agree, a large crowd saw something that wasn't easily explained. But I don’t understand how that sign correlates to the nation recognizing the King was enthroned. Based on the record of Acts as indicated by the actions of Saul and the vast majority of citizens they clearly didn’t get it, so all I’m asking is what “sign” would they as in the nation have got. I mean it wasn’t long after the event of Pentecost took place that a large crowd gathered to stone Stephen. Why weren’t they convinced the King had been enthroned and what sign would have convinced them, He was enthroned and had been given dominion?

Conquest