Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

But let's say my picture is wrong. The lost are so hardened that they fail to confess when faced with Jesus and are cast into hell or outer darkness, whichever you prefer to understand as their destination. So you believe that after a long, long time it will finally dawn on them that Jesus, who put them there, is Lord! How dumb can they be? Wouldn't it have been obvious all along? And so they finally admit that Jesus is Lord, who, as in the inquisitions, tortured it out of them. And this is saving faith? Again preposterous!

Homer,

This statement makes an assumption of hell as if it a torture chamber of some kind. Perhaps we have a total misunderstanding of what it will be (is) like.

Todd

[Guest]

I do not see an example of man thwarting God's will. How is it you see that in that passage? Perhaps we should take this to another thread, as this is not dealing with alternative views of hell.

Well, let me just briefly address it here, because there is a connection. If we need to discuss it further, then let's move it to another thread.

God wanted to bring all Israel into the Promised Land at that time. But ten of the spies brought back an evil report and the people refused to trust that God could bring them in anyway, no matter how difficult it might have seemed. So, they thwarted God's will (to bring them into the Promised Land) in the short term. Nevertheless, God still brought the next generation of Israelites into the land 38 years later.

This connects with the various views of Hell because of the analogy in Hebrews 3:7-4:11. The Promised Land is the Kingdom of God. The "rest" is not having to struggle day by day to meet one's outward as well as inward needs. This is achieved in actuality in the Kingdom, when we no longer have to work in order to live, and when we no longer have to worry about loving and being loved. This is achieved in type in the Body of Christ, when we no longer have to doubt that God will provide for our needs, even when circumstances look very difficult (as with the Israelites who wandered in the wilderness for 40 years; who fed them during that time?), and when we learn to love one another even in our weaknesses and struggles, just as Christ loved us.

One who can't love and trust, cannot enter into God's "rest". But nevertheless, God will still have mercy on them, and that was what I was getting at when I quoted Isaiah 29:22-24.

However, one who not only can't love and trust but rejects God entirely, knowing full well what they are rejecting (see Heb. 6:4-8 ), not only can't enter God's "rest" but are condemned to hell fire.

I hope that's a sufficient answer to your statement regarding Christ's sacrifice, and my reply that one must still accept it first.

Damon

Damon, the Israelites were disobedient. They were not thwarting God's will. The disobedient ones were punished, but their descendants were in the Promised Land. God fulfilled what he said he would do. I still do not see them thwarting God's will.

God's "rest" is not about day to day putting food on the table, imho. It's about our salvation. We, believers, can now rest in Jesus Christ because He is not a liar.

I am happy to see that you are not negating Christ's atoning work on the cross by positing universalism.

[Guest]

Will God's will be done?

2 Pet 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Todd

God's will will be done. He is not slack toward us (believers). He's waiting until we have all come to belief so that we may have our "rest" in our Lord and Savior.

To whom is the "us-ward" in that passage referring? In order to answer that, you need to recall basic English grammar and look further up in the text.

[Guest]

I am happy to see that you are not negating Christ's atoning work on the cross by positing universalism.

Those who defend universalism do so ONLY because of Christ's atoning work on the cross. Without which no one can be saved.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

My concept of what hell is like is that it is total separation from God, "outer darkness". The "lake of fire" would seem to be a place with a least some light but we seem to be dealing with metaphor(s). From statements made on this thread about God calling to people who are in the lake of fire I have understood the universalist position to be that the lost are in a state of terrible punishment until they confess. Perhaps I have misunderstood them.

[Guest]

Here is question for both sides of this discussion.

Jesus said, "whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3:17)

Paul said, "The Lord knows those who are his..." (2 Tim 2:19)

So from these statements it appears that judgment has already taken place in this life with regard to who belongs to Christ. If so, what is the purpose for the judgment after the resurrection?....rewards?....degree of punishment?

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

My concept of what hell is like is that it is total separation from God, "outer darkness". The "lake of fire" would seem to be a place with a least some light but we seem to be dealing with metaphor(s). From statements made on this thread about God calling to people who are in the lake of fire I have understood the universalist position to be that the lost are in a state of terrible punishment until they confess. Perhaps I have misunderstood them.

Homer, I suppose this goes back to the purpose for this thread. I would have to agree with you that it is not likely that God has set it up so that he tortures people until they confess. God seeks a true heart-felt conversion. Therefore the question becomes; Is it possible that the lake of fire is such a place where those who pass this life as unbelievers have a second chance to become converted. If it is a place of torture, as we understand torture, then perhaps not. But if it is something else, then maybe so.

I do believe that even if there is a second chance that there is still a difference between those who believe before death and those who don't. Those who die as believers are what is referred to as God's elect.

Todd

[Guest]

Will God's will be done?

2 Pet 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Todd

God's will will be done. He is not slack toward us (believers). He's waiting until we have all come to belief so that we may have our "rest" in our Lord and Savior.

To whom is the "us-ward" in that passage referring? In order to answer that, you need to recall basic English grammar and look further up in the text.

bump

[Guest]

I am assuming everyone posting here, with the possible exception of Steve G., are members of a church, or at least attend one regularly. What is your church's teaching on hell?

[Guest]

Err...I'm not a member of a church. I usually study with group of four people, not all of which get together every week.

Damon